CSTG's winter/spring build #....7? The Worst MSM Ever.
03-16-2015, 11:44 AM
#21
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Medford, OR
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Honestly, if your plan was to buy a decent MSM with your only intention to pull and build the motor, you didn't get that bad of a deal IMO. My only complaint if I were in your shoes would be the lack of quality from the "motor guy" at the Mazda dealership, who was actually a Ford mechanic. But should of been better than this.
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03-16-2015, 04:35 PM
#23
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Crater Lake Mazda is the dealer who did the amazing crappy repair after I bought the car. Replaced both broken motor mounts, but left bolts off of both for example.
The dealer in Houston I bought the car from was Roadsters Autos.
The dealer in Houston I bought the car from was Roadsters Autos.
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03-16-2015, 11:00 PM
#25
Thanks. Yup. My first was a 96 M Edition which was a wonderful little car and still lives with the friend I sold it to.
Then came a 97 built out to full FM Turbo II spec. Fast fun, fragile, and impossible to smog when I moved into southern Oregon where I have the honor of living in one of only two smog controller areas in the state. Sold to a guy who lives in a smog free zone.
In between I had an SM that I played with in NASA.
I had a 99 NB for a few months and decided I wanted an MSM because I think I can stealth it past the smog police by swapping out the MS and injectors every two years.
Then came a 97 built out to full FM Turbo II spec. Fast fun, fragile, and impossible to smog when I moved into southern Oregon where I have the honor of living in one of only two smog controller areas in the state. Sold to a guy who lives in a smog free zone.
In between I had an SM that I played with in NASA.
I had a 99 NB for a few months and decided I wanted an MSM because I think I can stealth it past the smog police by swapping out the MS and injectors every two years.
I like this guy. You'll fit right in here, and with CTSG help this thing will be in full glory in no time.
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03-16-2015, 11:34 PM
#26
Cpt. Slow
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https://www.miataturbo.net/dynos-tim...-record-82090/
Gauntlets been thrown, lets see what I can do with a S2 throttle body and FM intercooler/exhaust. I'm hoping for slightly similar results.
Gauntlets been thrown, lets see what I can do with a S2 throttle body and FM intercooler/exhaust. I'm hoping for slightly similar results.
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03-18-2015, 11:58 AM
#28
Interesting build, I feel ya on the black msm splurge 
Looking from photos, Has Houston written all over it (Arm pit of TX). Check for rust/sand/salt water exposure if you guys haven't already
I suspect a careless po didn't baby it and ran it till it's guts looked like that ^
Any noticeable warp damage from heat on the motor?
Looking from photos, Has Houston written all over it (Arm pit of TX). Check for rust/sand/salt water exposure if you guys haven't already
I suspect a careless po didn't baby it and ran it till it's guts looked like that ^
Any noticeable warp damage from heat on the motor?
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03-18-2015, 04:05 PM
#29
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Medford, OR
Posts: 21
Total Cats: 8
Interesting build, I feel ya on the black msm splurge
Looking from photos, Has Houston written all over it (Arm pit of TX). Check for rust/sand/salt water exposure if you guys haven't already
I suspect a careless po didn't baby it and ran it till it's guts looked like that ^
Any noticeable warp damage from heat on the motor?
Looking from photos, Has Houston written all over it (Arm pit of TX). Check for rust/sand/salt water exposure if you guys haven't already
I suspect a careless po didn't baby it and ran it till it's guts looked like that ^
Any noticeable warp damage from heat on the motor?
I'm not sure armpit of TX is right. I'm thinking a little lower.
No evident rust damage or water exposure. Some heat damage to the lights and the paint has clearly been poorly cared for. the entire caare was clearly owned by someone who did care or know how to maintain the car. Nothing insurmountable, just annoying to folks like us who care about the cars we drive
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03-20-2015, 04:20 PM
#30
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Medford, OR
Posts: 21
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Why "The Worst MSM Ever"?
It starts when I go to pick up the car from the shipper who is dropping it off in a large mall parking lot near my house, because there is no way his semi car hauler is making down my block. By the time I get over there he's already got it on the ground.
The guy is 10 hours late for the promised delivery time and it's dark, but I do the inspection of the car for shipping damage. A quick walk around the car shows no new damage, but the paint and general exterior appearance are a bit sad. No worries. I expected this in fact. The dealer photos seemed a little too out of focus to be just bad photography. Nobody gets every single picture slightly out of focus. As long as all the metal is in good shape I knew the paint could be fixed or redone if needed.
Other than the tired paint job everything else on the car looks pretty good, and all the pieces are there. I sign off on the shipping receipt, and go to drive my new toy home.
A check of the oil shows it's pretty dirty, but full. The car starts right up, and immediately both external belts are screeching for all they are worth. It's hard to tell in the poor light how bad the belts are, but I figure they should get me the mile and a half or so to my house. Perhaps they are simply slipping from the Armor-All the dealer sprayed all over the engine compartment to make it look shiny clean.
As soon as my son and I put our butts in the seats I know something else is wrong. This thing is shaking so hard at idle I figured it had to have a broken motor mount (it turns out both were broken).
I've never had a 6 speed Miata, and I'd heard they don't shift as nicely as the perfect 5 speeds all Miatas come with, but this one feels like a completely sloppy mess. Hard to tell what gear your shifting in to. Curly tells me the Delrin bushing is shot and the shift turret is toast as well, so it's rotted away the inner boot and started to destroy the outer boot.
I drive to the end of the parking lot to make the turn onto the main drag and upon braking discover the absolutely worst case of warped rotors I have ever experienced. I mean THE WORST. So bad it can't be a single rotor, gotta be both. This pisses me off of course, but I'm not worried, I had already ordered 949s BBK for the car, so the brake issue was just another thing added on the POS list for the car.
Pulling out on the road home I find that at about 37MPH the entire car starts to *SHAKE* violently. Not like just a wheel out of balance. Like every wheel is out of balance. I'm talking about the entire frame flexing itself, shaking like a dog getting out the bath. Every single wheel is hopping. It's incredible. Never driven anything like it. So I slow down to 30 and continue my trip home. Again, not too worried about this issue because I have a set of 949 6ULs on order along with new tires, so the flat-spotted square tires and Racing Harts are soon to be a non issue. Except as items to be added to the POS list.
It's about this time that I notice the unmistakable smell of hot coolant wafting into the passenger compartment. Yup, heater hose leaking into the car. We stop and look under the hood, and after the steam clears we see that while it's wet around the heater hose, it's not a catastrophic hose failure so we limp it home the remaining half mile. We pull into the garage, but by now the steam has combined with smoke as the antifreeze gets boiled by the exhaust manifold. The huge cloud of steam and smoke were simply too much to leave in my garage. The smoke alarm nearest the garage started within a minute of us pulling in. So my much anticipated MSM spends its first night home out it the driveway because it's too nasty to bring inside.
Next morning we take our first look in daylight. In addition to the heater hose, both radiator hose were leaking as well. The paint is every bit as funky as it looked last night, but again everything else on the car looks in pretty good shape, so maybe I didn't get "totally screwed" I think. Still trying hard to be optimistic.
I had to fly out of town for a week the following day, so I had no choice but to tow the car to the local Mazda dealer, and drop the key off in their box with a list of repairs I knew had to be made, and others I wanted done regardless like timing belt, water pump, compression check etc. I also asked they perform a full inspection of the car to determine if there were any other problems.
At the end of the day the dealer service adviser calls me to give me the findings. So, two broken motor mounts, both radiator hoses, & both heater hoses leaking, but other than that his mechanic said it was a pretty good car with no major issues. The compression numbers were fine. OK I say. Fix all the broken stuff you found plus replace the timing belt, water pump, tensioner, idler, plugs etc, Then drain and refill every fluid in the car. I'll pick it up Friday when I get back to town.
When I call Friday to confirm the car's ready he says that it is, but there is an "issue". It seems like only after fixing everything on the list above for two grand the mechanic heard what he thought was a rod bearing going out. He tells me the only repair they are willing to do for this is to try to source a factory MSM long block and swap it in for a mere $9,000.
Fortunately for me I had been lurking on MT.net for quite some time educating myself about what changes I might be able to get away with here in smog country, and reading build threads like Project Lazarus and others. When I saw that Curly's CTSG was in Oregon I knew there was a hope of reviving this poorly treated car.
Curly was kind enough to take this project on for me, and I know the car is finally in good hands. I absolutely can't wait to drive this car once it no longer The Worst MSM EVER.
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03-20-2015, 04:28 PM
#31
Cpt. Slow
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To update you on the shifter, there was zero signs of a lower bushing, and of course both upper and lower boots were toast.
And along with not tightening the crank bolt, the idler and tensioner pulleys were certainly not changed.
And along with not tightening the crank bolt, the idler and tensioner pulleys were certainly not changed.
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03-30-2015, 11:11 AM
#33
Cpt. Slow
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Not a huge update here, but an update none the less.
All parts are back from the machinist. The crank had to be ground .02", so oversized bearings were ordered. That means one more part (STD bearings) for my own personal 1.8 engine build is on the shelf! Small victories.
I also had some fun autox'ing for the first time. Definitely need to go again, but next time I'll dedicate an entire day for it. I ran first in NPR (non-porsche RWD), then begged and pleaded to do cone work in the porsche/FRS/BRZ group so I didn't have to wait around to cone for the AWD/FWD group until 6. I was at the finish, didn't move a single damn cone. Got a nice farmers tan though.
Ready for launch...
Squat!
As Oregonmon pointed out, this is what my car would look like if I lowered it, which is in the works...
Speaking of Oregonmon, I'm incredibly proud of him and his car. He wrestled it to a 33.0xx yesterday, and was 3rd in our group against some serious corvettes. Ended up 5th or 6th overall, against a couple of $100k+ Porsche GT3s. I built the engine and tuned it, no big deal.
Turbofan was another newb co-driving in Oregonmon's car, and did a 34.5. With $2500 less into my suspension, 400(?) more pounds, 20(?)-dyno'd @ 32hp less less horsepower, and 205 china (Wanli) vs. his 225 RS3s, I managed a 36.5. I'm proud of that, even with all my excuses.
After I left that autox, I headed to another friend's house to work on another MSM. This time to trouble shoot a failed internal map sensor. I wired in an external GM 3-bar, fired it up, and took off for more engine work on this thread's main attraction.
First step was modifying the MBSP for ARP main studs. Hate this job, but it's gotta be done.
#1&5 clearance is pretty easy, just cut some square holes, grinder gets in there pretty easily. Follow this with some dremel work to deburr the holes, and you're golden. I do this with only the 1&5 caps bolted down, no crank, so the other 2 don't get in my way of checking clearances.
#2&4 are a PITA, this is my method, YMMV. First I remove caps 1&5, bolt down 2&4, and reach in with a sharpie to mark their locations. I make the upper and lower cut, just enough to show day light through the center of the cut, then make a lot of similar cuts between.
Getting pretty consist here...
Then I use a dremel to cut those ribs out, and after some final deburring, here's the final product.
With this done, I can check the crank for oil clearances, install it, the oil pump, RMS, assemble and install the pistons, check rods for oil clearance, seal up the pan, bolt on the head, clutch, tranny, and reinstall and drive. I'll be dyno'ing by Saturday
All parts are back from the machinist. The crank had to be ground .02", so oversized bearings were ordered. That means one more part (STD bearings) for my own personal 1.8 engine build is on the shelf! Small victories.
I also had some fun autox'ing for the first time. Definitely need to go again, but next time I'll dedicate an entire day for it. I ran first in NPR (non-porsche RWD), then begged and pleaded to do cone work in the porsche/FRS/BRZ group so I didn't have to wait around to cone for the AWD/FWD group until 6. I was at the finish, didn't move a single damn cone. Got a nice farmers tan though.
Ready for launch...
Squat!
As Oregonmon pointed out, this is what my car would look like if I lowered it, which is in the works...
Speaking of Oregonmon, I'm incredibly proud of him and his car. He wrestled it to a 33.0xx yesterday, and was 3rd in our group against some serious corvettes. Ended up 5th or 6th overall, against a couple of $100k+ Porsche GT3s. I built the engine and tuned it, no big deal.
Turbofan was another newb co-driving in Oregonmon's car, and did a 34.5. With $2500 less into my suspension, 400(?) more pounds, 20(?)-dyno'd @ 32hp less less horsepower, and 205 china (Wanli) vs. his 225 RS3s, I managed a 36.5. I'm proud of that, even with all my excuses.
After I left that autox, I headed to another friend's house to work on another MSM. This time to trouble shoot a failed internal map sensor. I wired in an external GM 3-bar, fired it up, and took off for more engine work on this thread's main attraction.
First step was modifying the MBSP for ARP main studs. Hate this job, but it's gotta be done.
#1&5 clearance is pretty easy, just cut some square holes, grinder gets in there pretty easily. Follow this with some dremel work to deburr the holes, and you're golden. I do this with only the 1&5 caps bolted down, no crank, so the other 2 don't get in my way of checking clearances.
#2&4 are a PITA, this is my method, YMMV. First I remove caps 1&5, bolt down 2&4, and reach in with a sharpie to mark their locations. I make the upper and lower cut, just enough to show day light through the center of the cut, then make a lot of similar cuts between.
Getting pretty consist here...
Then I use a dremel to cut those ribs out, and after some final deburring, here's the final product.
With this done, I can check the crank for oil clearances, install it, the oil pump, RMS, assemble and install the pistons, check rods for oil clearance, seal up the pan, bolt on the head, clutch, tranny, and reinstall and drive. I'll be dyno'ing by Saturday
Last edited by curly; 03-13-2016 at 02:56 PM.
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03-30-2015, 12:19 PM
#34
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
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And only a second off of my turbo car. Also first time auto-x driver.
We ended up finishing up around 3. Wasn't that bad. It was pretty fun watching the front/all wheel drive cars tripod around the rear sweeper.
We ended up finishing up around 3. Wasn't that bad. It was pretty fun watching the front/all wheel drive cars tripod around the rear sweeper.
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03-31-2015, 04:24 PM
#36
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FWIW Ryan actually beat the Corvettes and ended up 4th overall behind 3 Porsches, all of them on fat Ho-hos.
I did your same job after you left and got to pick up several cones, ha. Stupid Charger. You definitely did extremely well all things considered. Also, I'm pretty sure I'm the one that took the pics you posted above
Woot
I did your same job after you left and got to pick up several cones, ha. Stupid Charger. You definitely did extremely well all things considered. Also, I'm pretty sure I'm the one that took the pics you posted above
Woot
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03-31-2015, 04:56 PM
#37
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Location: Medford, OR
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FWIW Ryan actually beat the Corvettes and ended up 4th overall behind 3 Porsches, all of them on fat Ho-hos.
I did your same job after you left and got to pick up several cones, ha. Stupid Charger. You definitely did extremely well all things considered. Also, I'm pretty sure I'm the one that took the pics you posted above Woot
I did your same job after you left and got to pick up several cones, ha. Stupid Charger. You definitely did extremely well all things considered. Also, I'm pretty sure I'm the one that took the pics you posted above
WootI always sucked at the few auto-x's I ever did, but when Curly is finished with my MSM build maybe I'll make the trip up and join you. If not for an auto-x, then surely for a track day.
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04-04-2015, 12:52 PM
#38
Cpt. Slow
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Mid weekend update. Last time we're going to see the Manely rods and ARP main studs.
I opened the oversized bearings for the ground crank after work Thursday, at 8pm. As of Friday at 4pm, I'm currently here:
We also added 3 jobs to the list, I'm excited for them all.
First, 949's 11.75" brake kit, with red wilwoods. Also purchased: rear SS lines, new sport rear rotors, and carbotechs for all four corners.
Stole this image from Rev. Why? Because I also stole his powder coat color. Owner bought a GT3 for me to install. Gonna look awesome.
Lastly, although not pictured, will be a stereo upgrade. My DD NB sounds great with it's bose, however I have a BNIB Clearwater bose specific speaker upgrade wasting space. This MSM has either a blown amp or a blown speaker on the driver's side. From what I've read, it's most likely a blown amp. I'm replacing it with one from the MSM I parted a few months ago, and installing the Clearwater speakers.
Back to the engine though.
The Good:
1. First time ever having a crank ground. After throwing the .5 oversized bearings in the 20/20 crank, I am INCREDIBLY impressed to report all 5 main caps and all 4 rod caps had .00175" oil clearance, love it.
2. I was freaking out a little on the inside because I did nothing to check the crank end play when I originally tore down the motor. I did check the old thrust bearings, they were still within spec, but with the damage to the crank, I was worried there was damage to the block. However after installing the brand new thrust bearings, I measured .0055" of end play, which is the same as Mobius' well cared for 128,000 mile VVT engine.
3. My 2nd worry was valve clearances. I've made an awesome Excel spreadsheet to do this job. I enter the current shim values, I think measure and enter the clearances, and it spits out the required shim size range. I was only off on 4, and was able to play musical chairs with a few shims I have to make them all within spec, without having to order any. YAY!
From here I can install the manifolds, obviously water pump and timing belt stuff. Sunday I'm going to use Adrenaline Racing's part washer to clean the transmission. I'm hoping to be close to being ready to put it in by the time I have to go back to work Tuesday.
The Bad:
Nothing so far
I opened the oversized bearings for the ground crank after work Thursday, at 8pm. As of Friday at 4pm, I'm currently here:
We also added 3 jobs to the list, I'm excited for them all.
First, 949's 11.75" brake kit, with red wilwoods. Also purchased: rear SS lines, new sport rear rotors, and carbotechs for all four corners.
Stole this image from Rev. Why? Because I also stole his powder coat color. Owner bought a GT3 for me to install. Gonna look awesome.
Lastly, although not pictured, will be a stereo upgrade. My DD NB sounds great with it's bose, however I have a BNIB Clearwater bose specific speaker upgrade wasting space. This MSM has either a blown amp or a blown speaker on the driver's side. From what I've read, it's most likely a blown amp. I'm replacing it with one from the MSM I parted a few months ago, and installing the Clearwater speakers.
Back to the engine though.
The Good:
1. First time ever having a crank ground. After throwing the .5 oversized bearings in the 20/20 crank, I am INCREDIBLY impressed to report all 5 main caps and all 4 rod caps had .00175" oil clearance, love it.
2. I was freaking out a little on the inside because I did nothing to check the crank end play when I originally tore down the motor. I did check the old thrust bearings, they were still within spec, but with the damage to the crank, I was worried there was damage to the block. However after installing the brand new thrust bearings, I measured .0055" of end play, which is the same as Mobius' well cared for 128,000 mile VVT engine.
3. My 2nd worry was valve clearances. I've made an awesome Excel spreadsheet to do this job. I enter the current shim values, I think measure and enter the clearances, and it spits out the required shim size range. I was only off on 4, and was able to play musical chairs with a few shims I have to make them all within spec, without having to order any. YAY!
From here I can install the manifolds, obviously water pump and timing belt stuff. Sunday I'm going to use Adrenaline Racing's part washer to clean the transmission. I'm hoping to be close to being ready to put it in by the time I have to go back to work Tuesday.
The Bad:
Nothing so far
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