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Old 07-05-2016, 08:16 PM   #241
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Hot damn it's a downpour outside. Supercell overhead with reports of 3" hail. Can't see 20' in front of you and getting hail that keeps getting bigger, hope the hardtop and car survive this!
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Old 07-05-2016, 09:29 PM   #242
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Ahh, that makes sense. I upgraded my head to +1 valves and dual weak springs but didn't change the cams.
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Old 07-06-2016, 09:21 PM   #243
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Whoops! My crank breather filter got melty and fell off. Might be from when I overheated, but I bought a non-K&N filter this time to see how it holds up. I did some WOT logs to get an idea how my spool was looking, and I've found a few things.

- I reach peak boost (19-20psi) around 4500rpm - The EBC is set to a 20.1psi limit and I haven't seen boost go above this yet.
- EBC is set to activate at 4000rpm. Might shift this higher in the band to delay the WG flapper cracking to encourage faster spool perhaps?
- ID1300 duty cycles was ~50% for 20psi @ 5100rpm. 10.2:1 AFR w/ 69% Ethanol in the tank. (Filled with and using up low % E85 from Monday) - Didn't get a chance to redline so not sure what my DC are there yet.

I have not adjusted the cam timing yet, I wanna do this between now and this weekend.
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Old 07-07-2016, 11:34 AM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_Idiot View Post
Whoops! My crank breather filter got melty and fell off. Might be from when I overheated, but I bought a non-K&N filter this time to see how it holds up. I did some WOT logs to get an idea how my spool was looking, and I've found a few things.

- I reach peak boost (19-20psi) around 4500rpm - The EBC is set to a 20.1psi limit and I haven't seen boost go above this yet.
- EBC is set to activate at 4000rpm. Might shift this higher in the band to delay the WG flapper cracking to encourage faster spool perhaps?
- ID1300 duty cycles was ~50% for 20psi @ 5100rpm. 10.2:1 AFR w/ 69% Ethanol in the tank. (Filled with and using up low % E85 from Monday) - Didn't get a chance to redline so not sure what my DC are there yet.

I have not adjusted the cam timing yet, I wanna do this between now and this weekend.
What do you mean by EBC engage at 4,000 rpm? Below that, what does it do?

Found this on the website/manual:
Quote:
Boost Control Threshold RPM
Boost control threshold RPM indicates the engine speed at which the boost PID controller starts to operate. If engine speed is below this value, the output of the PID controller will maintain the Wastegate PID (%) value at zero.
From http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/in...=27981.35;wap2 :
Quote:
"Set the boost control threshold RPM to a point that is at least a few hundred RPM below the point at which your turbocharger reached the mechanical wastegate spring pressure in the highest gear you tested. You may need to come back and adjust this value later if you find that the turbocharger can actually exceed your boost target below the threshold engine speed under any conditions. The electronic boost control system will feed a 100% duty cycle to the solenoid valve whenever the engine speed is below the indicated threshold and load is above 160 mmHg (80 kPa). This should keep the wastegate completely closed to improve spool.
This leads me to believe that you are leaving some spool on the table.
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Old 07-07-2016, 11:50 AM   #245
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Based on the pdf below, I think picking an RPM that your car hits 10-14psi and lowering it by 200-300 rpm. Then, lower or raise that rpm number. If you find that you can't hold your peak desired boost level, give it a little pre-load.

That is just my five minute research opinion. I don't think that it takes until 4,000 to reach 10psi... or does it?

From the "I want your spool" thread: (soviet)
Quote:
Engine: 1.9L
Turbo: Borg Warner EFR 6758
Manifold: Wittyworks shorty tubular
Downpipe Size/Style: 3"
Exhaust Size: 3"
Exhaust Components: Magnaflow 11x5x22 "big one"
Intercooler Core Size: Precision 600HP
Intake Manifold: Stock
Headwork: Junkyard 99 head
Engine Management: MS3 + MS3X
Other Spoolin' Helpers/Hurters: EBC, LS2 truck coils
Trans & Rear End Ratio: 6-speed, 3.9 diff

Fifth gear pull (6speed, so 1:1)

RPM PSI KPA

2756 9.4 164.5
2756 9.7 167.1
2785 10.1 169.6
2813 10.4 171.6
2827 10.8 174.8
2864 11.2 177
2868 11.6 180.1
2914 12.0 182.8
2905 12.3 185.1
2959 12.9 188.6
2967 13.3 191.5
3007 13.9 195.8
3008 14.5 200.3
Also, for point of reference,
Quote:
3285 20.5 241.3
This means that Soviet is hitting your boost target 1,300 rpm sooner.

I know no two builds are the same, but it looks like your boost threshold is off (high) by at least 800 rpm (best guess).

(link to another useful document: http://www.full-race.com/articles/efrturbotechbrief.pdf )

Last edited by Chiburbian; 07-07-2016 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 07-07-2016, 01:12 PM   #246
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^ Makes sense. The longer duration will definitely affect spoolup and midrange. More than I had wanted but not more than I will tolerate since I plan to bump the redline to 8k anyway these show I likely can rev there and keep the powerband climbing. Regardless, I dialed out a degree of overlap on each cam (117lsa) last night before I went to bed. Idle has a little more vacuum and the AFRs are unaffected. Will log some pulls to see how things look again.

In regard to the EBC;

The Hydra's EBC operates differently than you'd expect, the EBC has an RPM threshold below which the EBC wont engage and stays sealed shut even if it overboosts. The ECU will fuel/spark cut (think it's spark?) when it goes past target boost + a value that can be set as a buffer for overshooting a few psi. If it breaches the buffer the car falls on it's face until boost drops below the buffer. I bumped the threshold to 4150 and boost did come on significantly harder between 4-4150 but the car overshot to 23.8psi and then balanced out at 20 again. Didn't like the big overshoot so I dropped it back to 4100 and it's showed less overshoot (like half a psi in 5th). Gonna try to log some freeway pulls and see if I can see how things changed
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Old 07-07-2016, 01:31 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_Idiot View Post

In regard to the EBC;

The Hydra's EBC operates differently than you'd expect, the EBC has an RPM threshold below which the EBC wont engage and stays sealed shut even if it overboosts. The ECU will fuel/spark cut (think it's spark?) when it goes past target boost + a value that can be set as a buffer for overshooting a few psi. If it breaches the buffer the car falls on it's face until boost drops below the buffer. I bumped the threshold to 4150 and boost did come on significantly harder between 4-4150 but the car overshot to 23.8psi and then balanced out at 20 again. Didn't like the big overshoot so I dropped it back to 4100 and it's showed less overshoot (like half a psi in 5th). Gonna try to log some freeway pulls and see if I can see how things changed
No offense, but I think you are wrong. According to my reading of the manual, below the threshold the boost solenoid is runnig at 0% duty cycle, meaning that below 4,000 you are running wastegate. Do you have a log of the pull that gives boost control duty cycle? If it stays at 0% until your boost threshold, unplug the boost control solenoid with the motor off and unhook the vacuum lines. Try to blow through it. If you can blow through it, you are running wastegate pressure, thus worst possible spool.

EDIT: Also, I want to explain something that I think is confusing things. If you are hitting overboost by raising the threshold, it could be because your boost target is being acheived so close to your RPM threshold that the PID doesn't have any time to make adjustments. This also tells me that it's possible that your PID settings are incorrect and that they have never really been asked to do anything.

As an experiment, rather than UPPING your boost threshold, lower it to 3,500 and see if boost onset gets better or worse. If you hit earlier but overshoot, we can fix that, but it will give good data.

Last edited by Chiburbian; 07-07-2016 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 07-07-2016, 02:21 PM   #248
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^ I can give that a shot but from #244 in your quote from the MS website it supports what I was thinking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiburbian View Post
The electronic boost control system will feed a 100% duty cycle to the solenoid valve whenever the engine speed is below the indicated threshold and load is above 160 mmHg (80 kPa). This should keep the wastegate completely closed to improve spool.
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Old 07-07-2016, 02:33 PM   #249
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Hmm, good point.

i think I may have seen conflicting info and quoted the wrong one.
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Old 07-07-2016, 02:40 PM   #250
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^ Hey I'm all for learning something if I got it wrong, If it helps things my minimum duty cycle is 100%, and it drops to 68.6% to hold ~20psi at 800ft altitude. Was more like ~19psi at 4800ft though.
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Old 07-07-2016, 02:51 PM   #251
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I am little confused by what you mean by "minimum duty cycle", but I think I know what you are saying.

I think I found my mistake. In post 244 I quoted from the manual: "If engine speed is below this value, the output of the PID controller will maintain the Wastegate PID (%) value at zero."

I believe what they are saying on second reflection is that the PID algorythm is not active below that RPM, NOT that the duty is kept to 0% below that number.

Mea Culpa...

EDIT: It is odd though, that the PID would ever run below 100kpa as would be the case at say, 4,500 rpm at part throttle (85kpa).

Just for grins and giggles give a lower threshold a try though. I'm curious to see what happens.

Addendum#2: Found this good write up: topic,27981.15.html
it may or may not give any info you don't know but it looks like it might be useful for fine tuning.

Last edited by Chiburbian; 07-07-2016 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 07-09-2016, 03:32 PM   #252
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Adjusting the overlap out another degree each for 117lsa has produced 460-475mmHg idle. Spool is improved a little (have yet to adjust back the ebc threshold to see how much) but idle and taking off from a stop are definitely easier (Less rev and bump the clutch to get the car moving). AFR hasn't changed much and the ECU is covering the difference easily. I can almost drive this twin organic like an my old 6 puck clutch -- Really big shame nobody makes discs for these anymore... Traction is holding really well with these Maxxis tires, I haven't broken the rear end free yet except for when I didn't warm up the tires. Also haven't completely swapped over to e85 which should increase the torque a good deal. Reminds me, I should rotate them..

I see what folks are talking about now having to shift the 6spd so much more than the 5spd. Might swap out my 3.9 R+P for a 3.6 sometime and get some relief in this department

Edit- Emptied my catch can and got less than a quarter cup from 2500 miles and lots of boosting on the car.

Last edited by Der_Idiot; 07-09-2016 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 07-15-2016, 10:54 PM   #253
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Car's been running very well. I've been enjoying driving her without working on it for once. Lacey won't give driving it a shot though, understandable from the words I have to say when I stall at a light with cars behind me

In regards to performance, there has been talk with a friend about giving Nitrous a shot (heh) between earliest 3k until it hits ~50-60% target average while WOT (3750-4000rpm range?) to give the turbo a real kick in the pants and flatten out the powerband. The power band has room for sure up top with the duration on these cams and I have another 10psi and 40% usable injector left. My question for folks who have done this; how long does a bottle last? I'm going to run it only as a spool helper and not a continuous power adder and only use it when the car is at least 80% throttle so it's not spraying all the time.

Edit; Here's the picture that got my attention, the guy was running an 80? wet shot same setup before and after;




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Old 07-16-2016, 07:30 AM   #254
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3 hours out and about at MoA later and I find myself pushing my car down 5 floors of parking ramp. Fuses are all good, cranks but pump wont prime for some reason. I think the main relay is blown, after towing home I found the ECU was not reachable either and the CEL and airbag lights don't come on when I key the car on.

I wanna say I'm tired but man I'm WIRED.
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Old 07-16-2016, 08:49 AM   #255
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I can't recall, but depending on how the ECU is wired I am pretty sure the main relay will leave the ECU without power.
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Old 07-16-2016, 12:28 PM   #256
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A friend used a 50 shot on a RB26 as a spool aid and it generated boost 1000rpm earlier and delivered 150whp additional in the spool-up range. This was on an 800whp setup.
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Old 07-16-2016, 12:33 PM   #257
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This should help calculate longevity

25 Shot - 1lb of Nitrous per Minute - .017lb Nitrous Per Second
50 Shot - 2lb per Minute - .033lb Per Second
100 Shot - 4lb per Minute - .067lb Per Second
200 Shot - 8lb per Minute - .13lb per Second
300 Shot - 12lb Per Minute - .20lb per Second
400 Shot - 16lb Per Minute - .27lb Per Second
500 Shot - 20lb Per Minute - .33lb Per Second
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Old 07-16-2016, 12:47 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_Idiot View Post
3 hours out and about at MoA later and I find myself pushing my car down 5 floors of parking ramp. Fuses are all good, cranks but pump wont prime for some reason. I think the main relay is blown, after towing home I found the ECU was not reachable either and the CEL and airbag lights don't come on when I key the car on.

I wanna say I'm tired but man I'm WIRED.
You might try tapping on, or reseating the main relay. When mine failed, it was all melted and dark at the bottom where it got hot before it failed. Soon as I pulled it and inspected it was obvious it was bad.
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Old 07-17-2016, 12:05 AM   #259
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Relay replaced, car fired right up. I'll be keeping one of those on hand...

Thanks for that info Aidan, will definitely come in handy.2
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Old 07-18-2016, 02:47 PM   #260
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A lot of the kits I'm seeing for nitrous like the Zex universal kit use single nozzles in the charge pipe right before the TB. The FM kit has a bung for the air temp sensor in this location that might serve well, though I'm unsure how clearance looks. The AIT sensor would need to be moved, but where? The intercooler? Feels like that is so far from the throttle body though... The kits are spendy, I feel like I can piece something together and save quite a bit..
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