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Old 07-20-2015, 02:39 AM   #1581
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For those keeping score, I did get the shims back in the correct places on exhaust #1 and #2. Trust, but verify
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Old 07-20-2015, 02:44 AM   #1582
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BTW, if you need to reshim, I have a number of spares.

--Ian
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Old 07-20-2015, 11:32 AM   #1583
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For those keeping score, I did get the shims back in the correct places on exhaust #1 and #2. Trust, but verify
I'm watching you. Circle of trust.
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Old 07-20-2015, 11:48 AM   #1584
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You basically walked in here and told me my head was garbage and the machinist was incompetent. If that's not trolling I don't know what is.

I'm glad you have the resources to build these things yourself, I don't. For this reason, I checked what I could and I'm realistic about the tolerances of the tools I have available. Some of us don't have the tools or ability to rip apart an entire cylinder head and check every single clearance on every single mating part. For those things I have to trust that the work was done correctly. To this end I've hedged my bets and purchased a head from a trusted source. Don't assume I don't know what I'm doing just because I didn't do the work myself.

Here's the score:
  1. the majority of the lifters are on the "tight" end of the spec
  2. my feelers are .001 steps
  3. there could very easily be another .0009 on any of these measurements, I don't have the measurement resolution to confirm or deny
  4. there is one maybe two that are outside my measurement resolution and OEM tolerance
  5. this head has never been run, I expect these measurements to change after the valves fully seat

As I feel Ian correctly pointed out, the next step is to contact the guys from whom I purchased the head and ask their advice. They may tell me "Yeah, we run them tight because X" or "Its assumed you are going to re-shim after X hours on the motor once the valves seat" or even "Dear god that's terrible, the responsible parties will be shot at dawn. Here is our FedEx account number, crate your motor and sent it to us and we'll make it right." For all I know they may not be using OEM specs for what are obviously not OEM parts. I'll never know until I ask.

Also, in the interest of accuracy I need to remember to order a set of feelers that have .0005 steps.
Well you've basically said I'm full of ****, and that offends me too.

I've never trolled you, in this thread alone I've posted things to help you when you asked for advice on various things. (aside from this issue)

I said bad machine work caused the problem, and that sucks. That's LITERALLY the words I wrote. And it's true. You can be offended, call me a troll, whatever. You used good parts, and the tolerances are out on over 1/2 the valves in a short time frame. That's from bad machine work, and I get insulted publicly for telling you this. WTF?
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Old 07-20-2015, 12:30 PM   #1585
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Thanks for the help Pat, I'll take it under advisement.
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Old 07-20-2015, 12:33 PM   #1586
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Call Emilio and ask him. I tend to think that if anything they should be on the loose side, since they will tend to "wear in", and if they're tight already then you'll quickly reach the point of them not fully closing (been there done that, have the tears to show for it)

As for the front routed lines: nothing wrong with it AS LONG as you fasten them down. So like a bracket or two or a strap or something, to make 100% sure that they will never move or rub inside the timing cover.
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Old 07-20-2015, 01:20 PM   #1587
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Call Emilio and ask him. I tend to think that if anything they should be on the loose side, since they will tend to "wear in", and if they're tight already then you'll quickly reach the point of them not fully closing (been there done that, have the tears to show for it)

As for the front routed lines: nothing wrong with it AS LONG as you fasten them down. So like a bracket or two or a strap or something, to make 100% sure that they will never move or rub inside the timing cover.
Hm. I was under the impression that the shim tended to wear faster than the valve seat, so that the tolerances would get larger over time rather than smaller?

I tend to slit rubber hose lengthwise and slide it over stainless lines in order to protect other stuff from them. In this case, though, I'd just run it around the back because it's simpler and the extra couple feet of hose don't really hurt anything.

--Ian
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Old 07-20-2015, 01:25 PM   #1588
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Call Emilio and ask him. I tend to think that if anything they should be on the loose side, since they will tend to "wear in", and if they're tight already then you'll quickly reach the point of them not fully closing (been there done that, have the tears to show for it)
This was my thought process as well. Draft email is typed up, as soon as I get 15 or so minutes of people not dumping their self inflicted problems on me to solve I'll polish and send it.

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As for the front routed lines: nothing wrong with it AS LONG as you fasten them down. So like a bracket or two or a strap or something, to make 100% sure that they will never move or rub inside the timing cover.
I'm trying to decide if I want to T on the pressure sender or come off a sandwich plate behind the filter. I've not cut my oil filter tube thing yet so I still have some options.
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Old 07-20-2015, 01:36 PM   #1589
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In this case, though, I'd just run it around the back because it's simpler and the extra couple feet of hose don't really hurt anything.
My brain damage in this case is caused by the BorgWarner documentation for the EFR. They actually recommend a -6AN line for anything over 18" for oil feed. The 56" FM "around the back of the head" -4AN line is quite a bit out of spec for this particular case

I've gone through most of the threads or PMd guys running EFRs here on MT and while damn near everyone is running way longer than 18" very few are actually using -6AN. I can get a -4AN through that space with a piece of rubber hose over it no problem. If I feed it off the sandwich plate rather than T the sender, that's another 8 or so inches of line I can eliminate. I really dislike the T method, but I don't know if I can fit the sandwich and a Mocal thermo plate on there at the same time. I will be eliminating the factory oil cooler/heater so the answer to that question is most likely yes, but I also have not decided if I'm going to keep the sandwich plate. I haven't decided if I dislike the sandwich more or less than the T.
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Old 07-20-2015, 01:47 PM   #1590
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I can't think of a single car where I've seen bigger than -4an oil feed, and that includes cars with turbo's that can fit your borg inside them. I dunno.
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Old 07-20-2015, 01:55 PM   #1591
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Sandwich adapter is unfiltered oil to the turbo, right?
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Old 07-20-2015, 02:20 PM   #1592
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My brain damage in this case is caused by the BorgWarner documentation for the EFR. They actually recommend a -6AN line for anything over 18" for oil feed. The 56" FM "around the back of the head" -4AN line is quite a bit out of spec for this particular case
Huh, OK. That seems like a shitload of oil for a pretty small bearing, but I dunno EFRs.

I know the T off the sender seems hokey, but I've had one on my car for, uh, 12 years, 70K miles, 100+ autocrosses and 30+ track days. It's been fine.

--Ian
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Old 07-20-2015, 02:28 PM   #1593
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Sandwich adapter is unfiltered oil to the turbo, right?
Is it? ****. Well, that might be a non starter.
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Old 07-20-2015, 02:32 PM   #1594
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It follows the proven methods or it gets the hose again
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Old 07-20-2015, 02:34 PM   #1595
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Well, would you look at that. Guess that won't be happening. (lol@HLAs)
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Old 07-20-2015, 02:40 PM   #1596
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It follows the proven methods or it gets the hose again
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Old 07-20-2015, 03:18 PM   #1597
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Hm. I was under the impression that the shim tended to wear faster than the valve seat, so that the tolerances would get larger over time rather than smaller?

I tend to slit rubber hose lengthwise and slide it over stainless lines in order to protect other stuff from them. In this case, though, I'd just run it around the back because it's simpler and the extra couple feet of hose don't really hurt anything.

--Ian
The shim has a large surface area, and is cool, and bathed in oil.

Valve seat/shim is smaller area, higher pressure, and see's way higher temps with no oil cooling/no oil lubrication. Exhaust valves are hotter still. Thus why 1/2 his exhaust valves are tight, they are wearing away between the seat and valve causing the valve stem to move "up" and thus the tighter measured clearances.

I ran a 4AN on my EFR, never had a problem. It was a 44" line IIRC, no restrictor, VVT oil pump/VVT head.

Regarding oil location, when you're driving the car a lot of oil bypasses the filter anyways, it has a bypass valve inside it. I don't think Teeing off before the filter will matter, but using post-filter oil is technically better.
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Old 07-20-2015, 03:29 PM   #1598
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The shim has a large surface area, and is cool, and bathed in oil.

Valve seat/shim is smaller area, higher pressure, and see's way higher temps with no oil cooling/no oil lubrication. Exhaust valves are hotter still. Thus why 1/2 his exhaust valves are tight, they are wearing away between the seat and valve causing the valve stem to move "up" and thus the tighter measured clearances.
Uh. The engine hasn't even been started yet AFAIK, it's still sitting on the engine stand, how has it worn the valve seats?

As for shim vs seat wear, the shim has the cam sliding against it, rather than just open/close like the valve. I dunno, I'm a software guy, not a mechanical engineer. This is just what I read somewhere, and it matches up with my experiences of valve clearances getting looser over time rather than tighter.

But yeah, I should go check mine.

--Ian
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Old 07-20-2015, 03:42 PM   #1599
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Uh. The engine hasn't even been started yet AFAIK, it's still sitting on the engine stand, how has it worn the valve seats?

As for shim vs seat wear, the shim has the cam sliding against it, rather than just open/close like the valve. I dunno, I'm a software guy, not a mechanical engineer. This is just what I read somewhere, and it matches up with my experiences of valve clearances getting looser over time rather than tighter.

But yeah, I should go check mine.

--Ian
Well I asked him in my first post how many miles, any track use, etc, and he just called me a troll instead of answering the questions. I thought his car was running/driving though.

I'll wait for OP to clarify/answer the above questions.

If it's new and set that way........ I'll be surprised if this is the case.
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Old 07-20-2015, 03:49 PM   #1600
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Uh. The engine hasn't even been started yet AFAIK, it's still sitting on the engine stand, how has it worn the valve seats?

As for shim vs seat wear, the shim has the cam sliding against it, rather than just open/close like the valve. I dunno, I'm a software guy, not a mechanical engineer. This is just what I read somewhere, and it matches up with my experiences of valve clearances getting looser over time rather than tighter.

But yeah, I should go check mine.

--Ian
Over time, as in thousands and thousands of miles, clearances can go either way. It depends on the engine geometry/design, etc.

On miata motors with solid shims (99-2005) valves typically get tighter as the valve/seat wears. I've torn apart several 99+ heads on miatas and they all had worn exhaust valves, even lower mileage examples showed some wear on stock engines. I've only checked clearances on the heads I've used, but all of the ones I've checked were never loose, always wear tight, especially the exhaust side.

I cut my exhaust seats extra wide to help keep them happy for this exact reason.
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