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Old 06-24-2015, 04:03 AM   #121
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Default Ryephile's loosely guided build

Ok I'm trying the mobile app for the first time so let's see if I can post ok. EAE is like that first image I attached. It's really what you would use for unburned fuel controls especially on a cold engine. That doesn't mean you can't make it work, or that it's totally unsuitable for tip in.

X tau is closer to the second image which shows response curves over time and evaporation of wall film.
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Old 06-24-2015, 05:28 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryephile View Post
It appears the MS guys wrote EAE without fully understanding why it's used [originally as a hydrocarbon emission countermeasure] and it ends up being a tip-in band-aid with a steady-state calculation, whereas looking at their x-tau presentation, the implementation is much closer to a model based delta MAP.

In any case, whatever ends up working for your setup is what's important. X-Tau works brilliant in my application.

If you can't tune either, it's very likely then your VE map isn't correctly tuned. Without that correct no amount of AE tuning will ever work right. You should be able to drive the car with just the VE map and no AFR feedback or AE turned on and it should drive perfect except for bigger tip-ins and tip-outs. Casual tip-in's don't usually need AE.
Thanks for that, it's appreciated.

My VE table is pretty good I think. EGO authority is set to a max of 5% and it rarely if ever pegs out.

One issue I do have after fitting newer EV14 injectors is when cold the AE requirements are horrendous. When hot I barely need any at all AE, but when cold the requirement for it seems overly extreme. To the point where you can hear a lean miss-fire at tip in.

Surprisingly to me there is very little hesitation during this miss-fire, I don't get any throttle dip either that you usually get with a poor VE & AE tune.

Sorry for the thread hijack
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:39 AM   #123
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I love this discussion as I've been struggling to perfect EAE for some time now and agree that it's not all that great.
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Originally Posted by richyvrlimited View Post
One issue I do have after fitting newer EV14 injectors is when cold the AE requirements are horrendous. When hot I barely need any at all AE, but when cold the requirement for it seems overly extreme. To the point where you can hear a lean miss-fire at tip in.

Surprisingly to me there is very little hesitation during this miss-fire, I don't get any throttle dip either that you usually get with a poor VE & AE tune.

Sorry for the thread hijack
You are not alone. Many of us experience this exact thing. Car lean tips in and rich dips on throttle input/release, and when fully warmed up you can do pretty much anything with EAE values and there is almost no change.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:25 AM   #124
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Interesting. I would say the actions I get with EAE match the second diagram well. A few extra long pulses, followed by a taper down to steady state. After you post some info on X-Tau, I may run a comparison. Post a Log segment as well, please.

18, I'm still not seeing the issue you are describing, that EAE does not tame lean tip-in, rich release.
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:10 PM   #125
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Default Ryephile's loosely guided build

Ryephile has a bunch of logs from our tuning session on the dyno. There should be something in there for tip in, but not cold tip in.

We really didn't tune the X tau from whayever values were in there. It worked out of the box, and then we validated it by holding rpm steady on the loading dyno and doing quick throttle stabs, observing the second by second torque trace to look for dips. Unfortunately the dynapack software doesn't save that kind of continuous measurement, only transient rpm pulls.
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Old 06-25-2015, 06:03 AM   #126
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18psi, many thanks for that, I did think I was on my own with that issue! Sounds like I'm going to be playing with injector timing this weekend.

Many thanks to arghx7 too for the info & explanations!

For tuning injector timing I've read about this way as a method if you don't have access to a dyno:

Dial in the VE table so that when logging and checking with MLV VE analyzer/TunerStudio VEAL there are no/barely any changes.

Blanket change the entire injector timing table + 20deg.

make no other changes and go for a long drive, hit all areas of the map. Either datalog it, or run TS VEAL, but make sure changes are NOT saved to the ECU.

Once the drive is done analyse the log in MLS/view the heatmap in TS VEAL. & make a record where in the map fuel would need to be removed & the injector timing used, (more efficient burn/therefore better injection timing).

Now move the timing table again - no other changes, you've not applied the suggested changes to the VE table.

Repeat the test. & make a note of suggested areas to remove fuel.

Keep repeating the test at different injector timing angles. Eventually you'll build a map of ideal injector timing angles for all areas of the map.

Once you have this map, apply it to the ECU, and then go out and re-tune the VE table.
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Old 08-10-2015, 04:28 PM   #127
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Finally, I got the Miata on track! Did an HPDE weekend with 3 *****. They're a super laid back group and have almost no rules, which can be good and bad. Basically as long as you don't run into anyone or anything, you can drive whatever you want. They have an open wheel class too for the crazy LS1 based tube frame homebuilts.


A few notes:

*The front brake ducts [Singular 2.5" backing plates + high-temp ducting hose + grafted-in cut-down NACA ducts into GV front lip] are super effective. Immediately pulling into the pits, the front brake rotor and calipers were both 100F cooler than the rear rotors and calipers.

*The engine ran great. There's surprisingly almost no lag [for a fixed cam engine], and the wide bandwidth of the GT2554R is perfectly matched. Unlike an SM, I could keep it in 3rd gear for all the slower corners and not upset the tires on exit with the throttle flat. It's plenty rich, so EGT's were the same on the straights as during the extended dyno pulls, a modest 650C

*White Lightning on the turbo bits plus gold-foil heat shield meant my brake fluid reservoir was only 120F at the end of the session.

*It's super important to idle the engine for a minute after a session. I didn't do this first time around and the coolant temp rose up until I restarted the engine. Coolant temps on-track were always around 190F, ditto oil temps were also around 190F. Supermiata Radiator + Kia water neck re-route. Setrab 19-row with Mocal thermostat

*I was running heat-cycled-out SM7 take-offs, and unsurprisingly my pace was many seconds off my Exige S. Neverthelss the car isn't slow. The car was hanging with a modestly driven Panoz GT2, and well-driven LS6 swapped E36 M3. There was a Z06 that blew my doors off, but he was also running 4 million wide race slicks.

*The Anze/Penske dampers are magic with the "gators". Most cars get pulled into them and subsequently the walls; this is the first setup I've driven where the car wasn't bothered and very compliant over the gators. There's also a really bouncy transition exiting 1 and also at the apex of bluff bend, and again the car was very composed through there. Waterford Hills is a track in desperate need of all new surfacing, but the dampers did a great job keeping the tires glued.


Pics to make it worth your click:
WHRRI HPDE w/ 3 ***** by Ryephile, on Flickr

This is the engine after day 2: White Lightning still looks excellent
WHRRI HPDE w/ 3 ***** by Ryephile, on Flickr

WHRRI HPDE w/ 3 ***** by Ryephile, on Flickr

WHRRI HPDE w/ 3 ***** by Ryephile, on Flickr

WHRRI HPDE w/ 3 ***** by Ryephile, on Flickr


...and then my dad stopped by and took pics with his really old point-n-shoot
WHRRI1 by Ryephile, on Flickr

WHRRI2 by Ryephile, on Flickr

WHRRI4 by Ryephile, on Flickr

WHRRI3 by Ryephile, on Flickr
Attached Thumbnails
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Ryephile's loosely guided build-20278620399_39f1897308_c.jpg   Ryephile's loosely guided build-20456572062_02a36e1d5e_c.jpg   Ryephile's loosely guided build-20439048926_bee11e0f18_c.jpg   Ryephile's loosely guided build-20471544161_4e5bf70887_c.jpg  
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:17 AM   #128
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<p>Details on the gold foil, please. DEI product, gold leaf, other?</p>
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:17 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
<p>Details on the gold foil, please. DEI product, gold leaf, other?</p>
Correct, it's
DEI's 2" tape that I bought on Prime DEI's 2" tape that I bought on Prime
. I was just careful to apply each strip butted against each other so it looked clean.

It's proven to be very effective stuff on multiple projects.
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Old 08-12-2015, 12:36 AM   #130
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Nice build man, super clean. Also good to hear that the white lightning coating is holding up, going to give that a try on my swap project for the RX-8.
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Old 10-11-2015, 08:16 PM   #131
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I did two more track days this year with the Miata. I'm starting to get the hang of how the car wants to be driven to get good pace out of the car. Right now I'm running SM7 take-offs, and that's good for me to feel out the car before going to 225 R7's, which is the end-goal.

The final day was a hot-for-Michigan 90F with 120F track temps. It was too much for the Supermiata radiator. Down the 0.6 Mile long straightaway at Grattan, the temps were rising slowly until about 15 minutes into the sessions I saw 215F and chose to do a cool-down lap before finishing the session. Then, upon arrival home, the radiator gave its final gasp and left a big puddle in the garage floor. The top several rows of tubes had broken from the end-tank, weeping coolant. The radiator was mounted using all 4 stock rubber mounts, so if it was stress then it was more than the rubber could deflect. I'm leaning towards poor build quality. This is at 230wHP, re-route, no A/C, and better-than-stock ducting. Certainly way far off from 949's performance assertions of 300wHP with A/C.

IMG_7421.jpg by Ryephile, on Flickr

IMG_7420.jpg by Ryephile, on Flickr


So, I put in a big-boy radiator. Springfield Dyno's twin-row triple-pass. Putting it next to the Supermiata, I'm not surprised the latter couldn't handle the job. It's proper.
IMG_7372.jpg by Ryephile, on Flickr


No real comment yet on the coolant temps, other than when the thermostat opens at 180 from a cold start, the coolant temps drop back to 172 and close the thermostat for a few minutes. It took quite a while to get the system idling in the garage to reach fan-on to fan-off temp cycles. No, I haven't finished sealing it to the nose, the last pic is during install, not finished. You can see right here in the picture that the SD has obvious thermal expansion slots built into the structure. It still uses the 4 OEM rubber mounts. There's no provision for the 2nd fan, so I had to fab up revised mounts for my oil cooler.
IMG_7392.jpg by Ryephile, on Flickr
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Ryephile's loosely guided build-21910609730_15fb59016f_c.jpg   Ryephile's loosely guided build-21477644663_8c94324549_c.jpg   Ryephile's loosely guided build-22108817771_156a8319f2_c.jpg   Ryephile's loosely guided build-21475933174_f63fe7b30f_c.jpg  
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Old 10-11-2015, 10:21 PM   #132
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Wait...so the super miata rad had a mechanical/manufacturing failure well within its intended use and the counter measure was to buy a different rad?

Did you contact 949 about the failure? What did they say?
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Old 10-11-2015, 10:56 PM   #133
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There were 2 problems with the 949 radiator. 1.) it failed to keep the coolant temps reasonable for the duration of a session, and 2.) it also broke. So, Yes to the first question, and No to the second. I do not expect 949 to stand behind their product, nor is it relevant if he does because even a well-made replacement won't end up back in my car. The fact that it was unable to adequately cool the car on the track on the hottest days of summer meant a different radiator with greater thermal capacity was necessary anyway.

Going from a single row, single pass to a double row, triple pass "should" help significantly. After that, I still have the Singular ducts on the bench ready for installation, but to keep it scientific I'm only changing one thing at a time.
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Old 10-11-2015, 11:37 PM   #134
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Really liking this car. Very clean, professional work.

What kind of times are you posting at Grattan? I live about 20 minutes away!
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Old 10-12-2015, 12:06 AM   #135
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I do not expect 949 to stand behind their product
This is so confusing to me...

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Old 10-12-2015, 02:56 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
This is so confusing to me...

Agreed. I would expect them to stand behind their product.

I'm in stock ducting and today with air temps in the 78* range I was touching 201. Don't have any straights that long at ORP though. I have been skeptical of its ability to keep things cool -- sure is a lightweight.
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Old 10-12-2015, 04:22 AM   #137
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Ed I think you missed an attempt at satire from Efini there ...
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:06 AM   #138
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What kind of times are you running at Waterford?
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Old 10-12-2015, 11:31 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
Agreed. I would expect them to stand behind their product.

I'm in stock ducting and today with air temps in the 78* range I was touching 201. Don't have any straights that long at ORP though. I have been skeptical of its ability to keep things cool -- sure is a lightweight.
What kind of water temps are ideal? 190-195?
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Old 10-12-2015, 11:42 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryephile View Post
There were 2 problems with the 949 radiator. 1.) it failed to keep the coolant temps reasonable for the duration of a session, and 2.) it also broke.
It certainly appears that you've made up your mind, but generally when a radiator springs a leak, the system looses pressure, which drops the boiling point of the coolant. The lowered boiling point then allows overheating.

Its possible that your #2 caused your #1.
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