Shuiend blows motor #5; Naturally Aspirated Glory Incoming
07-29-2010, 01:17 PM
#42
mkturbo.com
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 15,176
Total Cats: 1,680
Engine assembled correctly, in terms of clearances and whatnot? Does it crank over normal speed when you take out the spark plugs (when trying to build oil pressure before you actually go to start the new block it for real)? Was it tight as hell turning it over by hand when you were assembling the longblock? Never having built an engine before I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Turning the crank by hand feels normal compared to all other motors I have turned by hand.
I was about to mention the bearings. I accidentally put one of my old main bearings when I was replacing them and just the combination of one half of an old bearing cause the crank to be nearly impossible to turn.
If the exhaust cam is hard to turn, I'd double check the caps are facing the correct direction and in the correct order, and retorque them.
If the exhaust cam is hard to turn, I'd double check the caps are facing the correct direction and in the correct order, and retorque them.
I have checked to make sure the caps are facing the correct direction and are on the correct ones multiple times. I have also retorqued them to spec several times. I will take pictures of those when I get home on saturday. The exhaust cam seems to be turning a bit easier now after a ton of trying to start the car.
Reply
0
0
08-01-2010, 07:39 PM
#44
mkturbo.com
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 15,176
Total Cats: 1,680
Almost 8 hours of ScottFW,Y8S, and I working on my car today. Still absolutely not starting. I am going to drink heavily starting now. Will post more information tomorrow. I almost wish I could find a shop that is smart enough to fix my car.
Also my gauge cluster is not working at all during cranking. I checked the main fuse for it and it is fine. Cluster was working before I pulled my motor. Anyone have any clue as to what could cause it not to work?
Also my gauge cluster is not working at all during cranking. I checked the main fuse for it and it is fine. Cluster was working before I pulled my motor. Anyone have any clue as to what could cause it not to work?
Last edited by shuiend; 08-01-2010 at 07:51 PM.
Reply
0
0
08-01-2010, 09:17 PM
#50
mkturbo.com
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 15,176
Total Cats: 1,680
Cam caps were on backwards and I think that had partly to do with turning over slowly. I did not try the new starter, but none of the 3 people there today thought the starter was bad at all. It worked all day long trying to start the motor like a champ. The battery on the other hand kept getting low and we kept recharging it. I have a video I will post in the morning.
Reply
0
0
08-01-2010, 09:39 PM
#52
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Falls Church, VA
Posts: 1,361
Total Cats: 17
Most of his cam caps were installed in the wrong direction. IOW, you could feel the circle was not perfectly smooth in one direction but perfect the other way around, so we fixed all that. His timing belt was also off by one tooth (only had 18 between the two pulleys where there should be 19). Before addressing those items the motor was kind of difficult to turn by hand, but now it's like it should be. It also cranks at normal speed so the starter should be fine. It pretty much sounds just like my engine (which does run BTW) while cranking, it just doesn't fire up.
Every now and then we'd get a tiny sputter like it wanted to catch, but never did. We know it's injecting fuel because we fouled a set of plugs before deciding to keep it in flood clear mode most of the time. He's got 120 psi compression in each cylinder, which we were thinking was okay for a new built motor since the rings haven't been seated yet. Trying to set the timing in tunerstudio while cranking was... problematic. First because we couldn't see the pulley marks, then because his stock coil wasn't triggering the timing light very well (resistance of the secondaries checks out per the FSM and so do the plug wires) so we switched to the COPs. We dicked with trigger offset a bunch and we got it on the money but the thing just won't fire up.
Every now and then we'd see some wisps of partially burned exhaust come out the intake, so I have a question about cam timing on the VVT engine. The intake cam pulley is different from what's on NAs in that it only has one big tick mark. We had it set so that with #1 at TDC and both sets of valves closed, the mark aligned with the mark on the plate behind the pulleys so it pointed in a 4 o'clock direction. I'm wondering if that one tick mark shouldn't be facing straight up at 12 o'clock. I vaguely remember considering that possibility and dismissing it for some reason but now I'm not sure.
Every now and then we'd get a tiny sputter like it wanted to catch, but never did. We know it's injecting fuel because we fouled a set of plugs before deciding to keep it in flood clear mode most of the time. He's got 120 psi compression in each cylinder, which we were thinking was okay for a new built motor since the rings haven't been seated yet. Trying to set the timing in tunerstudio while cranking was... problematic. First because we couldn't see the pulley marks, then because his stock coil wasn't triggering the timing light very well (resistance of the secondaries checks out per the FSM and so do the plug wires) so we switched to the COPs. We dicked with trigger offset a bunch and we got it on the money but the thing just won't fire up.
Every now and then we'd see some wisps of partially burned exhaust come out the intake, so I have a question about cam timing on the VVT engine. The intake cam pulley is different from what's on NAs in that it only has one big tick mark. We had it set so that with #1 at TDC and both sets of valves closed, the mark aligned with the mark on the plate behind the pulleys so it pointed in a 4 o'clock direction. I'm wondering if that one tick mark shouldn't be facing straight up at 12 o'clock. I vaguely remember considering that possibility and dismissing it for some reason but now I'm not sure.
Reply
0
0
08-01-2010, 09:45 PM
#53
Cpt. Slow
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 14,175
Total Cats: 1,129
I hate that, the cam sprockets can be off by what, 120*? Why did they put those two notches in there, is it so they're interchangeable? I think I did this once though with one cam and it was sputtering really sparatic, every 4th cycle there wasn't any compression.
I've also fouled plugs and it would crank over but never start. New plugs solved that. Did you just clean them, or replace them? Have you tried a new set of injectors, tested fuel pressure at the rail, and of course checked spark on all four?
I've also fouled plugs and it would crank over but never start. New plugs solved that. Did you just clean them, or replace them? Have you tried a new set of injectors, tested fuel pressure at the rail, and of course checked spark on all four?
Reply
0
0
08-01-2010, 09:55 PM
#54
mkturbo.com
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 15,176
Total Cats: 1,680
I hate that, the cam sprockets can be off by what, 120*? Why did they put those two notches in there, is it so they're interchangeable? I think I did this once though with one cam and it was sputtering really sparatic, every 4th cycle there wasn't any compression.
I've also fouled plugs and it would crank over but never start. New plugs solved that. Did you just clean them, or replace them? Have you tried a new set of injectors, tested fuel pressure at the rail, and of course checked spark on all four?
I've also fouled plugs and it would crank over but never start. New plugs solved that. Did you just clean them, or replace them? Have you tried a new set of injectors, tested fuel pressure at the rail, and of course checked spark on all four?
Injectors are RC550 that have less then 1000miles on them. I bought them brand new and had them in my old motor for about a month. They worked great in the motor before I pulled them.
I have not checked fuel pressure at the rail, mostly because I do not have a gauge to test it with. I am using my stock FPR from my 94 motor on the 99 fuel rail.
Reply
0
0
08-01-2010, 10:00 PM
#55
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Falls Church, VA
Posts: 1,361
Total Cats: 17
All four visibly spark, at least with the stock coil. We didn't test the plugs for visible spark after putting on the COPs, but every COP's wire bundle could trigger the timing light. We were trying with a brand new set of plugs at the end.
We did not test fuel pressure, and didn't do anything with injectors since they're more of a pain to get to with that intake. I mean, we started off fouling all 4 plugs so all 4 inject0rz work at least to some extent. They are the same 550s that Lars had running fine on his old motor, and I checked that MS is commanding a sane pulse width during cranking.
We did not test fuel pressure, and didn't do anything with injectors since they're more of a pain to get to with that intake. I mean, we started off fouling all 4 plugs so all 4 inject0rz work at least to some extent. They are the same 550s that Lars had running fine on his old motor, and I checked that MS is commanding a sane pulse width during cranking.
Reply
0
0
08-01-2010, 10:22 PM
#57
mkturbo.com
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 15,176
Total Cats: 1,680
I am running MS3 in full standalone. We talked about running my stock ecu jsut to see if it starts, I am not sure if it will start with my 550's in and I am not sure where my old stock injectors are, or if I even still have them.
Reply
0
0
08-01-2010, 11:10 PM
#59
It seriously sounds and turns like something is causing the motor to spin slow...
instead of typical: "VVVV, VVVV, VVVV, VVVV, VVVV, catch"
it's more like: "chug........chug.......chug........chug........fa rt."
First thing I thought was battery, but it had no effect, and we left the charger on it the rest of the evening. The motor just wont spin fast enough, 170rpm max, but I don't see how the starter would suddenly be bad. So either the cam timing is still off so the odd opening/closing times are causing resistance or there's some major friction that's fighting the starter.
we spent a good two hours just 'foreplaying' around. He gets spark and fuel, but it just cranks really slow...really low pitched chugging, unlike a typical fast high pitched crank.
I had to redo his timing belt; both his intake and exhaust cam were off a tooth. I noticed that when we were cranking puffs of air were coming out his throttle.
After we did that and tried cranking again we got one combustion burst, only once and it was just burning off all the fuel that was pooling up. It still cranked slow, but around 200rpm now.
We then determined that his intake cam had to be off, and "lol"-and-behold he put his cam gear on incorrectly. So after crying on the phone about how hard it is for him to properly do his timing belt all by himself, he finally got it and tried it again....same thing, really slow cranking speed...too slow to do anything cool, like fire and run.
We had removed a bracket on his starter because we couldn't fit it with his true oil pressure sender in the way, but we are beginning to think that maybe provided a good ground to the starter and the starter is to blame. when Lars gets back from SC I think he'll try adding a grounding strap to it first to see if that has an effect...otherwise I dunno what would cause such slow cranking speeds other than bad cam/valve timing or a bad starter.
instead of typical: "VVVV, VVVV, VVVV, VVVV, VVVV, catch"
it's more like: "chug........chug.......chug........chug........fa rt."
First thing I thought was battery, but it had no effect, and we left the charger on it the rest of the evening. The motor just wont spin fast enough, 170rpm max, but I don't see how the starter would suddenly be bad. So either the cam timing is still off so the odd opening/closing times are causing resistance or there's some major friction that's fighting the starter.
we spent a good two hours just 'foreplaying' around. He gets spark and fuel, but it just cranks really slow...really low pitched chugging, unlike a typical fast high pitched crank.
I had to redo his timing belt; both his intake and exhaust cam were off a tooth. I noticed that when we were cranking puffs of air were coming out his throttle.
After we did that and tried cranking again we got one combustion burst, only once and it was just burning off all the fuel that was pooling up. It still cranked slow, but around 200rpm now.
We then determined that his intake cam had to be off, and "lol"-and-behold he put his cam gear on incorrectly. So after crying on the phone about how hard it is for him to properly do his timing belt all by himself, he finally got it and tried it again....same thing, really slow cranking speed...too slow to do anything cool, like fire and run.
We had removed a bracket on his starter because we couldn't fit it with his true oil pressure sender in the way, but we are beginning to think that maybe provided a good ground to the starter and the starter is to blame. when Lars gets back from SC I think he'll try adding a grounding strap to it first to see if that has an effect...otherwise I dunno what would cause such slow cranking speeds other than bad cam/valve timing or a bad starter.
Reply
0
0
