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Old 10-12-2016, 03:23 PM   #761
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I read about those and have considered the derale unit but have read so many mixed reviews about them defaulting to off if they fail versus on. That kinda scared me but yea, Pam starts at 60% or so then ramps up with input from a thermal switch as well as maintaining ecu trigger. Maybe I'll revisit this,thanks for reminding me.

Also wondering if it's worth allowing the fan to run while the car is off simply to aid in convective heat transfer. Otherwise it sounds like yet another plus to electric water pumps along with the whole avoiding cavitation at high rpm thing.
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Old 10-13-2016, 10:18 AM   #762
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fwiw- I think my fan setup is a similar situation. I'm running a single 16" Spal that pulls ~20 amps on startup. IIRC I've got an 80 amp alt and the fan would cause a serious voltage drop with the headlights on. It also seemed to be overkill for pulling coolant temps down in the worst situations (sitting stopped at a light after boosted runs in summer heat). It could pull the coolant temps down in a matter of seconds. So this time around I wired it as a two speed fan. Either the coolant temp OR the AC can bring it on to speed 1, and if either of those are ON and the second trigger comes on, the fan will go full speed. This is the same approach OEs have used for years with a ballast resistor. It avoids the full load from a stopped fan. I've been out in heat with this setup- stopped at lights and stop-n-go traffic and the reduced speed still brings the temps down, just takes a little longer. I tested the second trigger in the garage with headlights on and the voltage hit isn't severe as from a stopped start. I'm using a 90s Volvo fan circuit - with the fan they run about $20 at the pullapart. I have not tried it out with headlights on, coolant fan on, and then turning on the AC (compressor loading up engine).

Volvo fan circuit with ⅓ ohm 100w resistor- which cuts the speed about half:


Wiring with coolant temp ground trigger, and AC using the compressor +12 black/blue lead.


Video of the speed differences:
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Old 10-13-2016, 10:32 AM   #763
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As stated in pats thread ms3 has some pretty good basic generic PWM features that could easily control your fan.
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Old 10-13-2016, 09:09 PM   #764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
As stated in pats thread ms3 has some pretty good basic generic PWM features that could easily control your fan.
True.
Also worth mentioning, I emailed SPAL regarding what PWM frequency they recommended, and they said 7kHz minimum to prevent damage, but recommended 15kHz or higher to avoid audible noise. I asked him about running it and 250Hz and he said that would maintain a state of inrush, increasing the motor temperature and over time cause the brushes and commutator edges to "chip off". So I'm going to run it at a higher frequency as recommended to prevent damage, and I don't think MS will go that high but I honestly haven't looked into it yet.
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Old 10-13-2016, 09:12 PM   #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
True.
Also worth mentioning, I emailed SPAL regarding what PWM frequency they recommended, and they said 7kHz minimum to prevent damage, but recommended 15kHz or higher to avoid audible noise. I asked him about running it and 250Hz and he said that would maintain a state of inrush, increasing the motor temperature and over time cause the brushes and commutator edges to "chip off". So I'm going to run it at a higher frequency as recommended to prevent damage, and I don't think MS will go that high but I honestly haven't looked into it yet.
Ms3 will do 250hz. That's a bummer. I really liked the idea of PWM fan control.
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Old 10-13-2016, 09:13 PM   #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psyber_0ptix View Post
I read about those and have considered the derale unit but have read so many mixed reviews about them defaulting to off if they fail versus on. That kinda scared me but yea, Pam starts at 60% or so then ramps up with input from a thermal switch as well as maintaining ecu trigger. Maybe I'll revisit this,thanks for reminding me.

Also wondering if it's worth allowing the fan to run while the car is off simply to aid in convective heat transfer. Otherwise it sounds like yet another plus to electric water pumps along with the whole avoiding cavitation at high rpm thing.
Mine isn't finished yet, but I'm building one that you connect to the GM CLT sensor from the MS3 and can set it to PWM between 10-100% based on a defined temp range. Building one because didn't like the options available as you mention, most seem sketchy.

And I run my fans for 5 minutes on low after shutdown and it makes a huge difference in heatsoak. It essentially kills it off.
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Old 10-13-2016, 10:36 PM   #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Mine isn't finished yet, but I'm building one that you connect to the GM CLT sensor from the MS3 and can set it to PWM between 10-100% based on a defined temp range. Building one because didn't like the options available as you mention, most seem sketchy.

And I run my fans for 5 minutes on low after shutdown and it makes a huge difference in heatsoak. It essentially kills it off.
Can you share the deets in layman's terms? I'm quite interested
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Old 10-14-2016, 12:17 AM   #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psyber_0ptix View Post
Can you share the deets in layman's terms? I'm quite interested
It's a high power switching transistor with a flyback diode, driven by a tiny microcontroller that samples the CLT sensor and adjust the PWM % up/down based on temp. I'm still designing and testing it, I had it working great at 250Hz (one driver could reliably run an 80Amp load with no convective cooling) but it couldn't handle the high frequency stuff without overheating. Making a couple changes to the design and will retest with new components tomorrow at the higher target frequency. Since I have a pair of fans my setup will have independent fan control so I can increase/decrease each fan as needed, as I have an oil cooler in front of one of the fans and want that fan to speed up if oil temps get too high. I can share the design or sell you one built and tested once I have it nailed down and know it works well.
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Old 10-14-2016, 08:26 AM   #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
It's a high power switching transistor with a flyback diode, driven by a tiny microcontroller that samples the CLT sensor and adjust the PWM % up/down based on temp. I'm still designing and testing it, I had it working great at 250Hz (one driver could reliably run an 80Amp load with no convective cooling) but it couldn't handle the high frequency stuff without overheating. Making a couple changes to the design and will retest with new components tomorrow at the higher target frequency. Since I have a pair of fans my setup will have independent fan control so I can increase/decrease each fan as needed, as I have an oil cooler in front of one of the fans and want that fan to speed up if oil temps get too high. I can share the design or sell you one built and tested once I have it nailed down and know it works well.

Definitely would be a good product, I'd support the cause! Lmk :3
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Old 10-14-2016, 08:47 AM   #770
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Supercore came in yesterday. Hopefully I'll have my car back today or tomorrow with the new intercooler.

Next big project on the car is ducting for sure. Still need to create an adapter and flange to nest within the fog bezels, but mount to the car, so the brake ducts can be attached. Probably just a tube with a tab drilled with a hole or two.

I have a new roll bar that's been sitting then selling a bunch of parts and concentrating on some house projects.
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Old 10-14-2016, 03:41 PM   #771
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Taking a bit longer. Car will be done tomorrow hopefully
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Old 10-14-2016, 03:53 PM   #772
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Have them keep the car, you will have your 4th exhaust hanger tomorrow night. They will need to do a small amount of welding.
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Old 10-26-2016, 08:07 PM   #773
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Forgot to update weeks ago. Custom intercooler and over the top piping. Just gotta get a new undertray, replace my aftermarket gauges, add an oil cooler and duct the radiator.
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Old 10-26-2016, 09:54 PM   #774
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Damn that looks very nice. I like the valve cover and IC/IC pipe setup.
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:02 AM   #775
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Yup lookin good. can't you relocate the intake to behind headlight tho? not sure I'd want it sucking radiator heat
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:05 AM   #776
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I just did this with a piece of 135 silicone elbow and there's still some interference. I need to get a pipe fashioned up...I'm terrified that this will collapse under full boost (like the old silicone inlet pipes for a Subaru) and haven't run it hard since. The headlamp motor is really in the way to be useful. +1 for NB.

The filter sits near the fender/xida adjustment ****

I was also thinking about moving the fan over to the alternator side. I remember when having the dual fan setup, that the passenger side blew barely warm air. Crossflow works great so I reduced to one fan in an effort to lower amp load on fan startup.

Last edited by psyber_0ptix; 10-27-2016 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:09 AM   #777
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I don't think that will happen, and even if it does, all it will do is choke power down, it's not a MAF car to worry about hurting anything
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:30 AM   #778
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My air filter has less radiator "exhaust" exposure, but still needs a box to isolate it. I'm considering pre-made airboxes (cans) by Spectre that come with an air filter. Don't know how much room you have- but if one of these cans fit, you could then run a "feed" hose to it from the cold side of the car. There a several sizes to choose from, scroll down to "similar items". My only concern is whether it's a restriction...?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005N6WXYM..._t1_B0035GS6RU

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Old 10-27-2016, 11:38 AM   #779
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Wait what kind of filter would this use at only 4" outer dia? I do have that hole in the fender area that I could draw cool air out of.

Damn that's a specialty filter if I ever saw one

edit: http://www.spectreperformance.com/se...aspx?prod=9833
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Old 10-27-2016, 11:46 AM   #780
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can't imagine that thing flowing nearly enough to feed a hungry midsize frame efr.
in fact even your current one (in pic) looks borderline small.
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