Big gun-rights win in TEXAS... Open Carry and Campus Carry
06-02-2015, 09:19 AM
#22
18psi, you come from Russia, yeah?
Organized crime is much more of a problem there than here. USA has a tradition of obedience to the rule of law. I'm not saying people don't break laws, everyone does, but generally speaking we still, as a society, think it's bad to break the law. In Russia, do people feel the same way? The reason it works here is that we buy in. The less we buy in to obeying the law, the less it works though.
Throwing organized crime out, and looking at the crime remaining, yes, armed citizens are an adequate deterrent to much of remaining crime. Now, I believe we also should educate and train people on gun safety, but an armed citizenship is vital to America functioning the way America does. If we remove the right to bear arms, only then would we see and understand the unfortunate consequences.
Currently, I don't own a fire arm, but I will.
Organized crime is much more of a problem there than here. USA has a tradition of obedience to the rule of law. I'm not saying people don't break laws, everyone does, but generally speaking we still, as a society, think it's bad to break the law. In Russia, do people feel the same way? The reason it works here is that we buy in. The less we buy in to obeying the law, the less it works though.
Throwing organized crime out, and looking at the crime remaining, yes, armed citizens are an adequate deterrent to much of remaining crime. Now, I believe we also should educate and train people on gun safety, but an armed citizenship is vital to America functioning the way America does. If we remove the right to bear arms, only then would we see and understand the unfortunate consequences.
Currently, I don't own a fire arm, but I will.
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06-02-2015, 09:41 AM
#23
Yep. Maybe, but you don't think thugs/thieves/scumbags here will try to get revenge on you if you killed one of their "homiez"? I dunno
And trust me, I'm NOT against people having the right to have weapons. Not at all. I guess what I find weird is how obsessed some people are with this, when in reality if you actually use the weapon you're in for a world of headache whether it was justified or not, and IMHO 99% of the people that have them or want them don't know how to use them or wouldn't even be able to properly diffuse the situation. (this goes back to what you just said about educating folks). Maybe it's because we're in sissy CA, but I haven't seen a single instance where a gun was used by a non-cop that didn't land them in jail, then court trials for months/years trying to figure out if it was justified, etc. Maybe that's it.
I'm completely open to being proven wrong, this isn't some stance I'm taking lol
And trust me, I'm NOT against people having the right to have weapons. Not at all. I guess what I find weird is how obsessed some people are with this, when in reality if you actually use the weapon you're in for a world of headache whether it was justified or not, and IMHO 99% of the people that have them or want them don't know how to use them or wouldn't even be able to properly diffuse the situation. (this goes back to what you just said about educating folks). Maybe it's because we're in sissy CA, but I haven't seen a single instance where a gun was used by a non-cop that didn't land them in jail, then court trials for months/years trying to figure out if it was justified, etc. Maybe that's it.
I'm completely open to being proven wrong, this isn't some stance I'm taking lol
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06-02-2015, 10:04 AM
#24
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In many states it even allows the use of deadly force to protect someone else.
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06-02-2015, 10:14 AM
#25
You're still likely going to have some legal problems to clear up even if they clear you. The severity can range from simply talking to the police, it being clear cut, and you getting released all the way to zimmerman levels of legal problems. To pretend killing someone isn't going to cause problems for you just because it was justified is fairly ignorant. But even with all of this I would still rather be alive and fighting the legal system than six feet under.
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06-02-2015, 10:21 AM
#26
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Yes, definitely.
A conservative estimate for the number of times a crime is prevented or stopped per year in the US is well over 1 million.
Note that this does not mean over 1 million triggers are pulled, but it is very clear that armed citizens have a dramatic effect on reducing crime.
Some more interesting facts: While it is true that the US has a higher fire-arm murder rate than say England or Australia, the violent crime rate is significantly lower.
Also, in areas of the country that have previously banned CCW loosen carry laws, crime drops. It never goes the other way around.
Depends on the situation, political climate, and preparedness of the shooter.
If the situation is clearly justified and you know the appropriate things to say to law enforcement, you'll probably be just fine.
and
I would trust an average CCW holder over the average police officer to make the right call in a shooting situation. Seriously. Restraint and marksmanship are very important qualities in people who routinely carry around a loaded gun. Most people who go through the trouble of obtaining a permit usually posses said qualities.
Bingo. Scenarios that go well for the good guy are seldom reported by the mainstream media, but they are numerous.
Maybe that's it.
Understood, and I hope the people responding will be respectful of that. The worst thing gun owners can do is be disrespectful of people who don't agree with us.
A conservative estimate for the number of times a crime is prevented or stopped per year in the US is well over 1 million.
Note that this does not mean over 1 million triggers are pulled, but it is very clear that armed citizens have a dramatic effect on reducing crime.
Some more interesting facts: While it is true that the US has a higher fire-arm murder rate than say England or Australia, the violent crime rate is significantly lower.
Also, in areas of the country that have previously banned CCW loosen carry laws, crime drops. It never goes the other way around.
If the situation is clearly justified and you know the appropriate things to say to law enforcement, you'll probably be just fine.
and
Maybe that's it.
Understood, and I hope the people responding will be respectful of that. The worst thing gun owners can do is be disrespectful of people who don't agree with us.
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06-02-2015, 10:39 AM
#27
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Someone runs up to you, threatens, you shoot them, the likelihood of you going away for a long time or ever is high, you go through insane court trials and all sorts of crap over what? The fact that like .0001 people get shot or killed in these situations and somehow walking around with a weapon is going to make you good at diffusing a situation? C'mon. And then there's the crazies who will shoot people either way, so unless you can spot the, shoot and successfully kill them before they do what they wanna do, you won't stop jack diddly.
The standard scenario plays out in movies all the time... bad guy has people held hostage in a bank! Good guy security guard thinks he's gonna be slick and tries to draw his gun in plain view of the bad guy... gets shot. This is what anti-gun folks want you to believe is the only outcome if you try to defend yourself with a gun.
Statistics show that thousands of people every day IN THIS COUNTRY are successful in spotting the bad guy before they have the complete upper hand and defending their lives with a firearm... whether that is exposing their gun to demonstrate they'll fight back, drawing the weapon, or firing the weapon. Sure, sometimes it just sucks to be you, but most people who carry firearms for self-defense don't choose "sucks to be me" as a way to live, and are prepared.
Now, before the hatered flows, I'd like to say: I've come to the US from a country where so many people carry weapons. So what do the bad guys do? They carry bigger weapons. They carry automatic weapons. They're organized. So the people that want to jack you will end up killing you regardless, whether you take one or two of them out as you go or not.
The false sense of security or that somehow this is a good idea is what really makes me laugh. You can find just as many of, if not more, videos/reports/incidents where people with guns got robbed or killed as you will people without guns.
when in reality if you actually use the weapon you're in for a world of headache whether it was justified or not, and IMHO 99% of the people that have them or want them don't know how to use them or wouldn't even be able to properly diffuse the situation.
"Many self-defense shootings don't have to happen" is probably a very accurate statement. Many shootings are due to somebody waiting too long to introduce a gun believe it or not. Many shootings are people who simply have no situational awareness and the firearm becomes their first/last/only option. I hope I'm not kidding myself about my own skills, but if I ever have to shoot a person, it's because they were trying to kill me... that it was obvious to the police when they arrived, that it was on video, and that there were witnesses, and most importantly, it was clear that there was nothing else I could have done to preserve my own life. In absence of that level of proof that what I did was legal and justified and don't get charged with a crime, there's always the chance for a civil suit "wrongful death", which can be just as financially devastating.
As for a false sense of security... who is kidding themselves more?
Me, who carries just in case and who incorporates a firearm in to an extensive self-defense plan... or somebody who's approach to security is "nothing bad will ever happen to me".
If this thread and the discussions interest you... please read these links:
Duty to Retreat, "Stand Your Ground", and Castle Doctrine
Duty to Retreat, "Stand Your Ground", and Castle Doctrine - The Firing Line Forums
On the Lawful Presentation of a Firearm in a Defensive Encounter
On the Lawful Presentation of a Firearm in a Defensive Encounter - The Firing Line Forums
Civil Liability, Civil Immunity, and the Use of Force
Civil Liability, Civil Immunity, and the Use of Force - The Firing Line Forums
Federal Constitutional Primer
Spats McGee?s Federal Constitutional Primer - The Firing Line Forums
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06-02-2015, 10:44 AM
#28
Yes, there is always the danger of that, but like I said, this is not as common or prevalent. True story about a man I know from church:
My friend, we’ll call him tom, had his truck stolen. Cops caught the bad guy, my friend opted to press charges. Bad guys buddies got pissed about this, and one day when my friend was in his yard pulling weeds, bad guys buddies pulled up, hopped out of a truck, and jumped him. Tom is an ex marine and ex CIA employee(in what role, I don’t know), so despite being in his 50’s, can take care of himself. He was outnumbered 3-1, and broke one of the guys legs before they knocked Tom out. Tom woke up in the hospital, and had been found in a puddle of his own blood at a bus stop down the street from the hospital. Tom recounted the story to the police/hospital staff. Turns out there was a guy who came in a few minutes before Tom with a broken leg. They put Tom on a stretcher and rolled him past the room with the other guy and his two buddies who were there keeping him company. Tom ID’d them, provided video from his home surveillance system to prove it, and they all went to jail.
If Tom had a gun, I don’t know what would have happened, but I bet it wouldn’t have been any worse than Tom nearly losing his life anyways.
My friend, we’ll call him tom, had his truck stolen. Cops caught the bad guy, my friend opted to press charges. Bad guys buddies got pissed about this, and one day when my friend was in his yard pulling weeds, bad guys buddies pulled up, hopped out of a truck, and jumped him. Tom is an ex marine and ex CIA employee(in what role, I don’t know), so despite being in his 50’s, can take care of himself. He was outnumbered 3-1, and broke one of the guys legs before they knocked Tom out. Tom woke up in the hospital, and had been found in a puddle of his own blood at a bus stop down the street from the hospital. Tom recounted the story to the police/hospital staff. Turns out there was a guy who came in a few minutes before Tom with a broken leg. They put Tom on a stretcher and rolled him past the room with the other guy and his two buddies who were there keeping him company. Tom ID’d them, provided video from his home surveillance system to prove it, and they all went to jail.
If Tom had a gun, I don’t know what would have happened, but I bet it wouldn’t have been any worse than Tom nearly losing his life anyways.
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06-02-2015, 10:50 AM
#29
I'll check em out.
Here's a question: How many here have ever had their life legitimately threatened to the point of 100% needing a firearm?
What about as a statistic over the whole population? Is there such a statistic?
Ok I can understand that.
Here's another one, this is from a distant relative of mine, who is currently in prison:
stupid crackhead "homeboys" come over to threaten him over some dumb argument they got into. one of them pulls a gun to "de-escalate" the situation. said relative snatches it out of his hands, it goes off, he murders the homeboy on accident.
he's in for 7 years, after an insane amount of court and all sorta stuff, proving that he did in fact do all of this in self defense.
I guess it's an isolated "CA problem"?
Here's a question: How many here have ever had their life legitimately threatened to the point of 100% needing a firearm?
What about as a statistic over the whole population? Is there such a statistic?
Yes, there is always the danger of that, but like I said, this is not as common or prevalent. True story about a man I know from church:
My friend, we’ll call him tom, had his truck stolen. Cops caught the bad guy, my friend opted to press charges. Bad guys buddies got pissed about this, and one day when my friend was in his yard pulling weeds, bad guys buddies pulled up, hopped out of a truck, and jumped him. Tom is an ex marine and ex CIA employee(in what role, I don’t know), so despite being in his 50’s, can take care of himself. He was outnumbered 3-1, and broke one of the guys legs before they knocked Tom out. Tom woke up in the hospital, and had been found in a puddle of his own blood at a bus stop down the street from the hospital. Tom recounted the story to the police/hospital staff. Turns out there was a guy who came in a few minutes before Tom with a broken leg. They put Tom on a stretcher and rolled him past the room with the other guy and his two buddies who were there keeping him company. Tom ID’d them, provided video from his home surveillance system to prove it, and they all went to jail.
If Tom had a gun, I don’t know what would have happened, but I bet it wouldn’t have been any worse than Tom nearly losing his life anyways.
My friend, we’ll call him tom, had his truck stolen. Cops caught the bad guy, my friend opted to press charges. Bad guys buddies got pissed about this, and one day when my friend was in his yard pulling weeds, bad guys buddies pulled up, hopped out of a truck, and jumped him. Tom is an ex marine and ex CIA employee(in what role, I don’t know), so despite being in his 50’s, can take care of himself. He was outnumbered 3-1, and broke one of the guys legs before they knocked Tom out. Tom woke up in the hospital, and had been found in a puddle of his own blood at a bus stop down the street from the hospital. Tom recounted the story to the police/hospital staff. Turns out there was a guy who came in a few minutes before Tom with a broken leg. They put Tom on a stretcher and rolled him past the room with the other guy and his two buddies who were there keeping him company. Tom ID’d them, provided video from his home surveillance system to prove it, and they all went to jail.
If Tom had a gun, I don’t know what would have happened, but I bet it wouldn’t have been any worse than Tom nearly losing his life anyways.
Here's another one, this is from a distant relative of mine, who is currently in prison:
stupid crackhead "homeboys" come over to threaten him over some dumb argument they got into. one of them pulls a gun to "de-escalate" the situation. said relative snatches it out of his hands, it goes off, he murders the homeboy on accident.
he's in for 7 years, after an insane amount of court and all sorta stuff, proving that he did in fact do all of this in self defense.
I guess it's an isolated "CA problem"?
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06-02-2015, 11:04 AM
#30
Duty to Retreat, "Stand Your Ground", and Castle Doctrine
Duty to Retreat, "Stand Your Ground", and Castle Doctrine - The Firing Line Forums
On the Lawful Presentation of a Firearm in a Defensive Encounter
On the Lawful Presentation of a Firearm in a Defensive Encounter - The Firing Line Forums
Civil Liability, Civil Immunity, and the Use of Force
Civil Liability, Civil Immunity, and the Use of Force - The Firing Line Forums
Federal Constitutional Primer
Spats McGee?s Federal Constitutional Primer - The Firing Line Forums
Duty to Retreat, "Stand Your Ground", and Castle Doctrine - The Firing Line Forums
On the Lawful Presentation of a Firearm in a Defensive Encounter
On the Lawful Presentation of a Firearm in a Defensive Encounter - The Firing Line Forums
Civil Liability, Civil Immunity, and the Use of Force
Civil Liability, Civil Immunity, and the Use of Force - The Firing Line Forums
Federal Constitutional Primer
Spats McGee?s Federal Constitutional Primer - The Firing Line Forums
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06-02-2015, 11:06 AM
#31
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You're still likely going to have some legal problems to clear up even if they clear you. The severity can range from simply talking to the police, it being clear cut, and you getting released all the way to zimmerman levels of legal problems. To pretend killing someone isn't going to cause problems for you just because it was justified is fairly ignorant. But even with all of this I would still rather be alive and fighting the legal system than six feet under.
I'm not suggesting you won't have ANY problems.
If you're justified in shooting someone, legally (not necessarily morally), than you won't have much of an issue - that was my point.
Zimmerman had issues because it wasn't clear cut and he could have avoided the situation by not following the kid.
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06-02-2015, 11:10 AM
#32
It's amazing the way some of you will try to read deeper into a statement than necessary in order to try to make a point.
I'm not suggesting you won't have ANY problems.
If you're justified in shooting someone, legally (not necessarily morally), than you won't have much of an issue - that was my point.
Zimmerman had issues because it wasn't clear cut and he could have avoided the situation by not following the kid.
I'm not suggesting you won't have ANY problems.
If you're justified in shooting someone, legally (not necessarily morally), than you won't have much of an issue - that was my point.
Zimmerman had issues because it wasn't clear cut and he could have avoided the situation by not following the kid.
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06-02-2015, 11:19 AM
#33
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None of the **** you are asking matters Vlad.
When legal gun ownership increases violent crime decreases and vice versa. Period. Regardless of country. Repeated world over.
End of story.
When legal gun ownership increases violent crime decreases and vice versa. Period. Regardless of country. Repeated world over.
End of story.
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06-02-2015, 11:37 AM
#39
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I already posted what you need to know.
Take guns from law abiding citizens, violent crime goes up. Do the reverse and the reverse happens.
All you need to do is google violent crime over time graphs and look up when legislation changes were made and to **** your confirmation bias off and you are set.
Take guns from law abiding citizens, violent crime goes up. Do the reverse and the reverse happens.
All you need to do is google violent crime over time graphs and look up when legislation changes were made and to **** your confirmation bias off and you are set.
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06-02-2015, 11:38 AM
#40
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<p>
</p><p>You must not know how easy it is to get a CCW in Oregon...you can do it all online pretty much.</p>
I would trust an average CCW holder over the average police officer to make the right call in a shooting situation. Seriously. Restraint and marksmanship are very important qualities in people who routinely carry around a loaded gun. Most people who go through the trouble of obtaining a permit usually posses said qualities.
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