Minimum Wage - Should It Be Raised? How Far? - Page 11 - Miata Turbo Forum -Boost cars, acquire cats.

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View Poll Results: Should the Federal Minimum Wage be Raised?
No, those jobs are for teenagers and 2nd incomes. 49 67.12%
Yes, to about $10/Hr. 12 16.44%
Yes, to about $15/Hr. 9 12.33%
Yes, to $_____/Hr. 3 4.11%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-04-2015, 07:48 PM   #201
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<p>I really hope that's an old picture of gas prices :X</p><p>I filled up for 1.84/g&nbsp;today</p>
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Old 09-04-2015, 08:02 PM   #202
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I paid 1.95 the other day for e85, I think 91 is still around 3.50 here.
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Old 11-06-2015, 01:58 PM   #203
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Suppose you saw a big fat old ugly cigar smoking man and he's married to a beautiful young lady.

what does that suggest about his income?

He cant compete for her hand in competition with the handsome guy, so he offers her a better price.

Is it fair for beautiful young ladies to treat big fat old ugly cigar smoking men any differently than they treat handsome men?

no. so let's make it a law: Beautiful young ladies can't "charge" ugly fat ciagr smoking men higher "prices" than they charge handsome men.

what happens to probablity of fat ugle cigar smoking men marring young beautiful ladies?

you've taken away their means to compete and handicap less perferred people.
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Old 11-06-2015, 02:22 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
The only way this works is if we get rid of that ******* "free trade" bullshit and institute import taxes like the rest of the modern world.
I tend to agree.

And import tariffs are not the only lever available to adjust trade balance. In some countries (China comes to mind immediately), US companies can already avoid import tariffs on goods sold into that market if a certain percentage of the manufacturing / assembly is done there. Eg: you ship a box of US-made parts to a factory in Guanzhou, where local workers assemble them into finished products which are then sold in China. And, as an unavoidable consequence, said US firms say to themselves "Well, we've already got a factory in China, we might as well use it to supply our customers in the rest of Asia, Australasia, etc." So, less US-assembled product yet again.

On the other hand, using tariffs and like measures to artificially manipulate labor and resource distribution can have interesting side-effects. A lot of American-owned Volkswagen dealerships in the US went out of business when France imposed a tax on chickens. (Economics is weird.) And this was back when VW's didn't suck.


That said, the TPP, which is now officially a thing, seems to concern itself largely with the reduction and elimination of import tariffs altogether. Which is good for China since all the US manufacturers have already set up their plants there, and there's no incentive to close them. Not so good for the US labor force, as this ensures that cheap Chinese-made goods remain cheaper in Norte Americana than their domestically-sourced counterparts. Of course, it's easier to collect welfare and demand $15 an hour to incompetently serve hamburgers than it is to learn how to weld or run a milling machine and build **** anyway, regardless of the societal costs involved.
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Old 02-24-2016, 07:48 PM   #205
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A $#!+y job is motivation for self improvement.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:22 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAZDAZE View Post
A $#!+y job is motivation for self improvement.
First, I acknowledge that you dragged up this thread to post a generally insignificant comment thereby reaching your 10th forum post. I also acknowledge that you are not a new member to the site; therefore your motives are suspect but not altogether criminal.

A shitty job is motivation for *many* people for self improvement. Also, I agree that economic improvement is a goal of nearly all people. Unfortunately, economic improvement is generally a very vague term to define. While you and I may see "economic improvement" as "more money" and the things that one can do with more money, a not-insignificant percentage of the population views "economic improvement" as "less effort" for the same money. These are a group of people who do only what is literally necessary to maintain a standard of living which includes food, shelter, and water. This group of people is the enabling group on the $15/hr front. They are the most vocal. What's important is that this group of individuals do not seek $15/hr so that they can make more money, but rather they seek $15/hr so they can exert less effort to make the cash that they need to avoid this month's eviction. The unfortunate thing for them is that if they were to all double their wages, then the demand for housing would increase - by possibly more than double - since you can't also start eating twice as much food, driving twice as many cars, using twice as many iPhone6s's, etc., and they would all end up in the same situation, working the same hours, living the same life, and complaining that the rent is still too damned high.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:58 AM   #207
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A shitty job is a starting point for mass protests/picklet lines/unreasonable demands.
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:08 AM   #208
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Jesus, this thing?

I'm sorry I ever posted it, though someone else would have.

I'll say this: Whenever, on any issue, I see lots of people making their arguments based on a lot of anecdotal bullshit, I tend to doubt their opinion. This is why I don't really buy a lot of the gun-control Kool-Aid with regard to mag-bans. Its why I don't buy this whole 'tax-the-rich-to-solve-our-problems' BS. Under scrutiny, the facts just don't support it as much as you'd think. Most gun violence is done with shitty low-cap pistols. The rich pay a huge portion of the income tax - regardless of what BS loopholes are in place.

Primary concern is what actually 'works'. Which in this case is IMHO is what allows for the max number of people to find employment that allows them to improve their quality of life. Especially for people who have responsibilities that don't let them go to school or take on 3 jobs.

I suggest that a modest min wage increase and import tariffs would do that. More domestic production, and better pay for those doing it.

I don't buy the idea that suddenly demand for housing and phones will double. First off, If it did it would probably be a boon for the economy. Second, it wont. Pretty sure in this thread people have already stated that there's not as many people on min wage as you might think, and they are not on it for as long as you might think. ****, I think I lost that argument somewhere in this thread if I cared enough to look. Prices may rise - basic economics - but I doubt it will be some catastrophic increase.

Any studies on what's happened in Seattle since they went to fricken $15? I have not seen them yet - that should be interesting.

Funny story. I was at an event for my employer. We are a 501C3. The next booth over was in favor of a $15 min wage. Which would be a pay raise for me. It was awkward, but I was laughing my *** off on the inside. I think $15 for a burger flipper is ridiculous considering some of the work I and others do for less than that that's far, far higher skilled. When I say increase, I mean something more mild than that. I support myself just fine on less than $15. I might feel different if I had kids or debt though.
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:24 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparetire View Post
Any studies on what's happened in Seattle since they went to fricken $15? I have not seen them yet - that should be interesting.
I have seen a few smaller studies about Seattle and a few other cities that have raised the minimum wage a good amount. The big take aways were that overall employment in the food and hospitality industry fell. I will go back and see if I can find some links.
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:25 AM   #210
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You forgot teenagers and senior citizens being completely unable to find a job at all.
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:30 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
You forgot teenagers and senior citizens being completely unable to find a job at all.
Yes for the senior citizens. White middle class teenagers are still able to find jobs, it is the minority teenagers who are having the harder time finding a job. It is the ones who need the job the most, who are being priced out of the market.
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Old 02-25-2016, 11:13 AM   #212
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Price increase due to minimum wage hike is definitely clouded by the inflow of money to the area from high tech companies, but here are some articles.

7/8/15 - Seattle?s Tech Boom Is Driving Up Housing Prices - Bloomberg Business

10/12/15 - Seattle homes selling in 5 days and over asking price - MarketWatch

2/22/16 - Seattle home buyers devour new listings as inventory keeps shrinking - MarketWatch

2/23/16 - Seattle metro-area home prices up nearly 10 percent in a year | The Seattle Times

What's important is that with a minimum wage increase, the value of *all* homes don't increase proportionally - the least valuable homes/lowest rent sees a massive surge in price, average homes see a minimal increase in price, and luxury homes don't see much difference at all or even a small price drop. The ones affected the most by the price increase are the people who the increase in minimum wage was intended to help the most.
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Old 02-25-2016, 12:58 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Yes for the senior citizens. White middle class teenagers are still able to find jobs, it is the minority teenagers who are having the harder time finding a job. It is the ones who need the job the most, who are being priced out of the market.


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Old 02-26-2016, 02:26 PM   #214
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Communism is the best thing that can happen to this country with this new generation.
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Old 03-11-2016, 02:04 PM   #215
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Old 03-11-2016, 02:17 PM   #216
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The minimum wage should be raised to, but not above, the amount any employer is willing to pay the most worthless members of the workforce to to do the least meaningful jobs.
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Old 03-11-2016, 03:19 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
The minimum wage should be raised to, but not above, the amount any employer is willing to pay the most worthless members of the workforce to to do the least meaningful jobs.
i c wut you did thar.

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Old 03-11-2016, 04:20 PM   #218
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Increase import tariffs across the board, tax "capitol profits" (profits not earned through human labor), stop incentivizing joblessness (end welfare), start subsidizing labor (flat rate paid to any employee of a profitable company for each hour worked at or above the minimum wage up to 40 hrs per week)

Government mandated minimum wage increases are a red herring - the real problem is the obsolescence and subsequent devaluation of "human labor" in favor of "capitol labor". Technology is supposed to make humans more efficient - and it has - but the only ones benefiting from the efficiency are the ones who can afford the technology and the ones who can most efficiently run technology that others can't.

The utopian end only happens when the hard working can still easily get ahead while everyone can "stay in the game". If I'm elected president, not only will we be a richer country, but one day soon families will again be able to survive on a single income, college costs will come down because standard-educated-laborers will again be in demand and well-payed, the family unit will return to what it was in the 1920s, and drugs will wither and die out. A vote for fooger is a vote for our future.
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Old 03-11-2016, 04:53 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
tax "capitol profits" (profits not earned through human labor),
(...)
the real problem is the obsolescence and subsequent devaluation of "human labor" in favor of "capitol labor". Technology is supposed to make humans more efficient - and it has - but the only ones benefiting from the efficiency are the ones who can afford the technology and the ones who can most efficiently run technology that others can't.
So, the idea here would be to incentive business owners not to invest in technology and equipment to improve productivity?

How far do you take that? If a worker uses a CNC lathe as opposed to a manual lathe, is that capital labor? What if the worker uses a power drill instead of a hand-operated drill? Or a steam engine as opposed to an ox?

Bakeries which want to be successful in such a regime will have to ditch their modern electric / gas ovens in favor of cooking with wood in iron stoves. Except that even the iron stove is a capital investment, so that makes the baker's labor capital labor. So... campfires?

This is, of course, reductio ad absurdum. But it illustrates the problem with drying to draw some arbitrary dividing line down the middle of workforce productivity.

You can't legislate a return to the pre-industrial era.
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Old 03-11-2016, 06:05 PM   #220
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You can't legislate a return to the pre-industrial era.
It's damn near impossible now to fill those lowest level manual labor jobs now because sitting on a couch pays so well these days. The culture of laziness is so pervasive I dare say you might have to threaten some men with a whip to get them to do work.
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