Ryan_G

iTrader: (8)

You completely missed the part where I said the feelings are not a choice...I also like how you are surprised that well rounded college educated and likable people can possible disagree with you. You must be so open minded.

I do choose to act on my heterosexual urges. My body does not compel me to act in any sort of way. Getting a boner is a physical reaction and cannot be compared to dressing in a certain way or ones choice of bathroom. I happen to be a heterosexual so choosing to act on those urges is of no real consequence because society accepts it. I count myself lucky in this regard. There are harsh realities in this world and things are not always as they "should be". I find it to be a choice to act on any urge. I often have a strong urge to assault certain people for various disgraceful acts. However, I have yet to indulge these urges a single time in my life. Urges and feelings are not a choice. How you act on them is definitely a choice.

I am also not claiming that this girl/boy should act in any manner. Feel free to act, dress, and claim to be whatever you want. Don't expect to be treated how you feel you should be treated. This is the same thing with people who get tattoo's and go to job interviews. Their tattoo's can be absolutely amazing but there is a stigma about tattoo's and I would not hire them for a professional position because it will affect how my clients view them.

My point is that the school did not disgrace this person. They did not even force him/her to use the boys bathroom. They merely stopped him/her from using the girls bathroom because it could make every other child uncomfortable. Bathrooms are separated on the basis of SEX not GENDER. Case closed.

gearhead_318

iTrader: (1)

If me wanting to be in a room where there are no girls/females/people with boobies and a vaj when I poop is wrong then I don't want to be right.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

other people being uncomfortable falls into the illegal pile.

FRT_Fun

iTrader: (19)

lol girls don't poop, they use the bathroom solely for girl talk and fixing their make up. Much like the members of mt.net.

2ndGearRubber

If a child dresses and acts as a female, and females use toilet facilities separated by stalls, why does it matter? No one sees anything, no one knows the difference. That child looks pretty damn convincing to me, and if she walked into the women's bathroom, I wouldn't bat an eye.

FWIW: Most TG individuals will undergo hormone treatment, to assure a "identity correct" puberty. So I doubt this kid will have a full beard and a shaved head, while wearing a dress.


I agree there is a difference between acting on hard-wired feelings, and just having them. I disagree in expecting any human being to be forced to live a lie about who they are for their entire life.








I found it odd that someone with a college education had never heard/read about western gender roles. Or at least that's how I perceived what I wrote. On second thought, maybe Joe just doesn't buy that theory. Perfectly valid to not define a difference, of course, although I personally don't think it shows the whole picture.

supercooper

I myself had an encounter like this... i was going to Drury University, and was taking Abnormal Psych... i was using the urinal, when this "guy" came in, and began to use the urinal beside me. i heard this strange pumping sound, then heard Urine hitting the urinal... i wasnt going to look, just as i wouldnt look if i HADNT heard the sound.
i go to class, sit down... and the teacher introduced a guest speaker... a male, who by all means LOOKED male, with small frame/stature.
the teacher began to explain transgender, and the surgeries involved if wanted...... this Male WAS a female... had reproductive surgery... the pumping was a valve that was used to inflate the Urethra, so He could urinate...
it didnt bother me at all AS it was happening, but after i found out, i was slightly uncomfortable... not for any REAL reason... Ive come to terms, and am ok with it now though...
BASICALLY... moral of the story... I did not know at the time, nor WOULD i have known, if "HE" wasnt a guest speaker in my abnormal Psych class... if they have the "parts" then it really isnt all that odd or uncomfortable... you really wouldnt know that they WERENT genetically the same sex as you, if you were never told.... in most cases anyways. "HE" looked, and sounded every bit like a Male, and was able to use the urinals in the restroom... aside from the pumping (which isnt used anymore, this surgery was done years ago when it was still in its infantile stage) there was nothing odd otherwise

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

there are no morals in this story.

Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

The idea that "gender" is somehow separable from "sex" is a modern invention, and represents more than a bit of revisionist history.

The concept of "gender" arose in the Greek classical period (5th century BC) during an era of great advancement and thought in medicine and philosophy.

From that time until the mid 20th century AD, the words "gender" and "sex" described different aspects of the same phenomenon. "Sex" was typically used when speaking in a biological or reproductive context, whereas "gender" typically described the social and psychological ramifications of "sex." The two concepts, however, were fundamentally inseparable and defined in simple genetic terms (or in simple physical terms, prior to the understanding of heredity & genetics.) For nearly 2,500 years, an effeminate man was still "male" in any context.

It was not until Freud rose to prominence in the early 1900s and inspired a whole generation of followers who chose to invent their own methods of abstracting content from reality that the idea of "gender identity" came into existence, and was subsequently gang-raped until it became loose enough to be stretched across a continuum of identities.

In other words, the term was appropriated quite recently by a bunch of psychobabble soft-science types to describe a made up "feel-good" concept which allowed them to ramble endlessly in dissertations and academic presentations.

And so no, I don't buy that specific interpretation. Taking hormone pills and flipping the dick inside-out to simulate a vagina no more makes a woman than putting a body kit onto a Fiero makes it a Lamborghini.

supercooper

+1.. props on that one... lmao i agree 100%... just saying, if i DIDNT find out, i wouldnt have known.... hahaha

hustler

iTrader: (6)

All you tranny ------s need the lord.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

You're a smart guy and I respect you, so please tell me you're not stupid enough to dismiss sociology as "psychobabble soft-science".

gearhead_318

iTrader: (1)

Preach brother.

Joe Perez

iTrader: (8)

Sociology? Mostly no.

Pop-psychology? Mostly yes.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

6 year old progressives:



so insightful and so creative.

Scrappy Jack

iTrader: (2)

Interesting thread. I came in to it thinking I was firmly on one side of the issue, then gradually drifted more toward the center.

I am curious, 2ndgear - What are the 3 genders you discuss New Zealanders, some Asians, and some Native Americans as having?

Ryan_G

iTrader: (8)

I am kind of curious which side you started on Scrappy.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

well, first he started as a male, but now he's a "girl".

Scrappy Jack

iTrader: (2)

I was pretty firmly on the "there is no way a 6 year old knows they are transgender and, even if that is their feeling currently, no way they should/could be leading any sort of fight for equality."

I was also pretty solidly inline with Sr. Perez regarding sex being binary and unambiguous and "gender identity" being a pretty soft modern construct.

The clarification of sex (male/female) and society-based gender roles makes sense to me. The former remains pretty binary to me, but the latter seems to be prima fascia a continuum that changes over time.


And, operationally, a transgender female (is that the right term for one born a male?) - or a drag queen for that matter - could use a female bathroom pretty simply and with what I would expect would be minimal discomfort for the other occupants so long as everyone was sitting down to do their business.

Showers and locker rooms get a bit more complicated.

DazedandConfused

iTrader: (4)

I'm just here for pictures of ladyboys and this thread is very lacking

2ndGearRubber

Somoa is most often referenced as having the two western genders, plus a third, which is male sex, female gender. Fafafini is the spelling, IIRC. It's generally accepted in most Polynesian cultures. NZ is within the realm of Polynesia, but Somoa is more often listed as the "home" of said gender. Asia is seen as having a similar 3rd gender. Dazed is a particular connoisseur of such. However, in that culture, sex with a fafafini is not considered a homosexual act, since the community views them as being female.

The map below shows the official Polynesian realm, although western coastal asia shares a similar culture.






Native Americans have what is called "One With Two Spirits". Gender identity isn't tied to sex, in OWTS. They are seen as having the spirits of two people, yet in one body. Of course, the thing I admire most about the Native American culture, is their openness to differences within the community. Beautiful culture, really.





As far as Somoa and Asia, the male sex/female identity, is most prevalent. The Native Americans don't have as many recordings/accounts as other cultures, but the split is closer to equal for both sexes.


IMO, with the more strictly defined gender roles for XY individuals, I do not find it surprising that most anecdotal evidence points to XY living as XX as the most prevalent occurrence.