Cheap build, need opinions
10-03-2008, 01:17 AM
#21
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You know, you guys aren't giveing him credit. For $600 I think its a hell of a nice job. And who cares if its a china turbo? If it only lasts a year, he did only spend like $60 on it lolol. Also, I like the turbo stickin out of the hood...
Good work man, like everyone said brace that manifold! Spool prolly wont be the best, but the high end power will be sweet!
Good work man, like everyone said brace that manifold! Spool prolly wont be the best, but the high end power will be sweet!
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10-03-2008, 01:28 AM
#22
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Should be a fun sight in the rain....
EDIT: For $600 he didn't do too terribly bad but he asked for advice/input so that's what we're giving him. Critiquing things like his oil drain setup may very well save him a lot of headaches/problems down the road.
EDIT: For $600 he didn't do too terribly bad but he asked for advice/input so that's what we're giving him. Critiquing things like his oil drain setup may very well save him a lot of headaches/problems down the road.
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10-03-2008, 10:03 AM
#23
Nobody has mentioned timing.
TruX, for a non-intercooled setup, your base timing needs to be dialed back to 6*. Check the miata.net garage for how to adjust your timing. You can get a used Bipes for about $100 nowadays... HUGE for your timing solution.
You need to be running 93octane.
You need a boost gauge or you run a very high rish of blow your engine. There's no way to tell whether you're getting 2psi or 12psi from that turbo unless you have a gauge. 7psi non-interooled with a base timing adjustment and Vortech is not good for your motor. Even big turbo will raise charge temps to the point of severe detonation in the midrange as you come up on boost. Lean tip-in is the destroyer of pistons. You need to ensure for the time being that you're only running about 5psi on that for safety.
I applaud your 100% DIY build and am a bit jealous I don't have the time to pursue such a ghetto setup (might be fun), but it's gonna be less fun when you throw a rod... and you've got about 5 things going on here that absolutely have the potential to break your motor bad the first time you hit boost.
I'm at work and can't see the Photobucket pictures, but I'll assume you've got a 1.6. Look in the classifieds here for some injectors from a 1.8 to allow you to get your fuel pressures down a little.
The 255lph is known to overpower the stock FPR on the fuel rail. This means you'll be running higher than OEM fuel pressure out of boost and just pissing away fuel. Your idle will be erratic and transitions in and out of boost will be jerky and probably cause backfiring. You really need the Walbro 190lphHP... plenty of pressure and flow, but won't overpower the stock FPR.
If you haven't bought a new fuel filter yet, they're about $15 at Autozone.
At 7psi (if that's what you're running) on that turbo, the clutch is will be on the edge of suspect... we're talking slippage during gentle roll-on... be gentle.
Again, I can't see the pics, but if the only thing you have for fuel/timing is a Vortech, then you have nothing to TUNE. Going to a dyno will tell you how much power you're making and where you stand fuel-wise, but there's nothing the dyno operator will be able to do for you if you're lean or rich. You've got nothing adjustable (unless you've got extra Vortech discs). In other words, a dyno at this point is a waste of money.
With "bandaid" setup, the adjustments are made through fuel pressure, rate-of-rise, timing retard (based on RPM or boost or IAT), Lean Tip-In via O2clamp, and boost. You can't adjust any of these (maybe boost if there's an adjustable wastegate rod, but I doubt it).
Basically, with this very minimal setup, the only thing you can effect is your base timing... which needs to be down in the 5* or 6* range because you're not intercooled. You might be able to get away with 7* on 93octance with an intercooler. If it still has 87octane in it, YOU NEED TO DRAIN THAT ******* FUEL BEFORE YOU GET IT IN BOOST EVEN A LITTLE AND REFILL WITH 93 OR YOU WILL DETONATE OF THROW A ROD!!!
I'll be back with more advice when I get home and can see the pics... CAN'T WAIT to see this thing!!!
TruX, for a non-intercooled setup, your base timing needs to be dialed back to 6*. Check the miata.net garage for how to adjust your timing. You can get a used Bipes for about $100 nowadays... HUGE for your timing solution.
You need to be running 93octane.
You need a boost gauge or you run a very high rish of blow your engine. There's no way to tell whether you're getting 2psi or 12psi from that turbo unless you have a gauge. 7psi non-interooled with a base timing adjustment and Vortech is not good for your motor. Even big turbo will raise charge temps to the point of severe detonation in the midrange as you come up on boost. Lean tip-in is the destroyer of pistons. You need to ensure for the time being that you're only running about 5psi on that for safety.
I applaud your 100% DIY build and am a bit jealous I don't have the time to pursue such a ghetto setup (might be fun), but it's gonna be less fun when you throw a rod... and you've got about 5 things going on here that absolutely have the potential to break your motor bad the first time you hit boost.
I'm at work and can't see the Photobucket pictures, but I'll assume you've got a 1.6. Look in the classifieds here for some injectors from a 1.8 to allow you to get your fuel pressures down a little.
The 255lph is known to overpower the stock FPR on the fuel rail. This means you'll be running higher than OEM fuel pressure out of boost and just pissing away fuel. Your idle will be erratic and transitions in and out of boost will be jerky and probably cause backfiring. You really need the Walbro 190lphHP... plenty of pressure and flow, but won't overpower the stock FPR.
If you haven't bought a new fuel filter yet, they're about $15 at Autozone.
At 7psi (if that's what you're running) on that turbo, the clutch is will be on the edge of suspect... we're talking slippage during gentle roll-on... be gentle.
Again, I can't see the pics, but if the only thing you have for fuel/timing is a Vortech, then you have nothing to TUNE. Going to a dyno will tell you how much power you're making and where you stand fuel-wise, but there's nothing the dyno operator will be able to do for you if you're lean or rich. You've got nothing adjustable (unless you've got extra Vortech discs). In other words, a dyno at this point is a waste of money.
With "bandaid" setup, the adjustments are made through fuel pressure, rate-of-rise, timing retard (based on RPM or boost or IAT), Lean Tip-In via O2clamp, and boost. You can't adjust any of these (maybe boost if there's an adjustable wastegate rod, but I doubt it).
Basically, with this very minimal setup, the only thing you can effect is your base timing... which needs to be down in the 5* or 6* range because you're not intercooled. You might be able to get away with 7* on 93octance with an intercooler. If it still has 87octane in it, YOU NEED TO DRAIN THAT ******* FUEL BEFORE YOU GET IT IN BOOST EVEN A LITTLE AND REFILL WITH 93 OR YOU WILL DETONATE OF THROW A ROD!!!
I'll be back with more advice when I get home and can see the pics... CAN'T WAIT to see this thing!!!
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10-03-2008, 11:31 AM
#25
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it is a 1.8, i have a good clutch in it, and i have always ran 93 oct. because i ran the timing advanced. my wastegate does have an ajustable rod, is that how i adjust boost? will the stock mass air meter work? do i need check valves in any of the vacum lines? the dyno is free and he has a wideband, just so we can get the fuel pressure right. boost gauge is in the mail. thanks everybody.
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10-03-2008, 12:52 PM
#26
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YOU CAN SEE MORE PICS, DIFFERANT ANGLES AND STUFF AT
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a157/FOURX4TRUX/
AND THE OTHER PICS ON THERE WILL KINDA EXPLAIN MY NAME AND WHY I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT TURBO'S. I HAVE BUILT SOME THE BIGGEST MALL CRAWLERS AND SOME OF THE BEST ROCK CRAWLERS AND EVEN A FEW MUSTANGS BUT NEVER PLAYED WITH A TURBO. I BOUGHT THE CAR FOR MY GIRLFRIEND BUT AFTER I DROVE IT I QUIT MAKING MAKING FUN OF IT AND I WANTED IT. IT CAME LOWERED WITH TOKICO STRUTS AND EIBOK SPRINGS, FULL EXHAUST, 16" WHEELS, HEADLIGHT CONV. I PUT THE ROLL BAR IN IT, AND OF COURSE THE TURBO.
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a157/FOURX4TRUX/
AND THE OTHER PICS ON THERE WILL KINDA EXPLAIN MY NAME AND WHY I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT TURBO'S. I HAVE BUILT SOME THE BIGGEST MALL CRAWLERS AND SOME OF THE BEST ROCK CRAWLERS AND EVEN A FEW MUSTANGS BUT NEVER PLAYED WITH A TURBO. I BOUGHT THE CAR FOR MY GIRLFRIEND BUT AFTER I DROVE IT I QUIT MAKING MAKING FUN OF IT AND I WANTED IT. IT CAME LOWERED WITH TOKICO STRUTS AND EIBOK SPRINGS, FULL EXHAUST, 16" WHEELS, HEADLIGHT CONV. I PUT THE ROLL BAR IN IT, AND OF COURSE THE TURBO.
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10-03-2008, 12:53 PM
#27
^This is why you should put your location in your profile and a short-list in your signature... just the year of your car and a basic list of mods would eliminate a lot of questions down the line. Check my sig for an example.
How do you plan to adjust fuel pressure?
Without an adjustable rod, it will be difficult to lower boost. I can't see how the actuator is attached to the compressor side, but if it's mounted to the back of the compressor, you could add some washers between the housing and the bracket... if there's any kind of bend in the rod, you could straighten it... otherwise you're stuck with what you have. If it is in fact 7psi, it really is a bad idea to run non-intercooled on a minimal band-aid setup. Your wideband reading will let you know if you've got enough fuel... but you'll get to the point where charge temps are too high for the richness to compensate and you'll knock.
I've never used any checkvalves anywhere on my system... some people may recommend a valve on your brake master-cylinder line. It would also be a good idea to upgrade to an OEM Mazda (Bosch is OK) PCV valve from a 323GTX. The stock Miata PCV is not engineered for boost. Mine broke and almost cost me an engine. Everybody upgrades, do it.
The stock mass air meter for 94+ cars have no adjustability on them at all. There is a small adjustment for idle AFR on the flapper-door style MAF's on the 1.6's, but not on the heated-sensor 94+ MAF's. The only other adjustment you have control of is the idle-speed screw on the top of the throttle body... which you may need to adjust if the new added restriction of the turbo causes a low or droopy idle. The 94+ cars are much better overall at adjusting for the added fuel/air of a turbocharged setup due to the sensitivity of the MAF, but you're still going to have lean tip-in problem, overfueling at idle due to your fuel pump, loss of low-end torque due to retarded timing, and a couple other things that the wideband will reveal.
Here's what will happen when you go WOT starting at around 2k rpm:
1: You'll be slightly rich until about 3krpm when you start making boost, until then, you'll have ZERO power due to the retarded timing.
2: The instant you hit big'ish boost about 4500rpm, the FMU is in full swing, raising fuel pressure, trying to cause a rich condition as intended.
3. The stock narrowband 02sensor tells the stock ECU the car is rich, then the ECU pulls fuel, causing an immediate lean condition.
4. This lean-ness continues until you blow the motor or have reached a boost level so that the FMU is giving enough extra fuel pressure and the stock ECU can't pull anymore causing "about" the right amount of fuel.
5. Just in time for the 5500rpm fuel rapture where the stock ECU dumps in a ****-ton of fuel for fun (programming) and causes you to dip into the 10's or richer and kills all your power.
There are guys out there running a bone stock Greddy Kit on their otherwise bone stock cars for 100k+ miles and still going strong... at 4.5-5psi depending on how hot/cold it is whether or not there's a passenger, with nothing more than retarded base timing and the 12:1 Vortech disc on the stock injectors and fuel pump. 2psi more is a BIG DEAL when it comes to charge temps.
How do you plan to adjust fuel pressure?
Without an adjustable rod, it will be difficult to lower boost. I can't see how the actuator is attached to the compressor side, but if it's mounted to the back of the compressor, you could add some washers between the housing and the bracket... if there's any kind of bend in the rod, you could straighten it... otherwise you're stuck with what you have. If it is in fact 7psi, it really is a bad idea to run non-intercooled on a minimal band-aid setup. Your wideband reading will let you know if you've got enough fuel... but you'll get to the point where charge temps are too high for the richness to compensate and you'll knock.
I've never used any checkvalves anywhere on my system... some people may recommend a valve on your brake master-cylinder line. It would also be a good idea to upgrade to an OEM Mazda (Bosch is OK) PCV valve from a 323GTX. The stock Miata PCV is not engineered for boost. Mine broke and almost cost me an engine. Everybody upgrades, do it.
The stock mass air meter for 94+ cars have no adjustability on them at all. There is a small adjustment for idle AFR on the flapper-door style MAF's on the 1.6's, but not on the heated-sensor 94+ MAF's. The only other adjustment you have control of is the idle-speed screw on the top of the throttle body... which you may need to adjust if the new added restriction of the turbo causes a low or droopy idle. The 94+ cars are much better overall at adjusting for the added fuel/air of a turbocharged setup due to the sensitivity of the MAF, but you're still going to have lean tip-in problem, overfueling at idle due to your fuel pump, loss of low-end torque due to retarded timing, and a couple other things that the wideband will reveal.
Here's what will happen when you go WOT starting at around 2k rpm:
1: You'll be slightly rich until about 3krpm when you start making boost, until then, you'll have ZERO power due to the retarded timing.
2: The instant you hit big'ish boost about 4500rpm, the FMU is in full swing, raising fuel pressure, trying to cause a rich condition as intended.
3. The stock narrowband 02sensor tells the stock ECU the car is rich, then the ECU pulls fuel, causing an immediate lean condition.
4. This lean-ness continues until you blow the motor or have reached a boost level so that the FMU is giving enough extra fuel pressure and the stock ECU can't pull anymore causing "about" the right amount of fuel.
5. Just in time for the 5500rpm fuel rapture where the stock ECU dumps in a ****-ton of fuel for fun (programming) and causes you to dip into the 10's or richer and kills all your power.
There are guys out there running a bone stock Greddy Kit on their otherwise bone stock cars for 100k+ miles and still going strong... at 4.5-5psi depending on how hot/cold it is whether or not there's a passenger, with nothing more than retarded base timing and the 12:1 Vortech disc on the stock injectors and fuel pump. 2psi more is a BIG DEAL when it comes to charge temps.
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10-03-2008, 01:08 PM
#28
YOU CAN SEE MORE PICS, DIFFERANT ANGLES AND STUFF AT
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a157/FOURX4TRUX/
AND THE OTHER PICS ON THERE WILL KINDA EXPLAIN MY NAME AND WHY I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT TURBO'S. I HAVE BUILT SOME THE BIGGEST MALL CRAWLERS AND SOME OF THE BEST ROCK CRAWLERS AND EVEN A FEW MUSTANGS BUT NEVER PLAYED WITH A TURBO. I BOUGHT THE CAR FOR MY GIRLFRIEND BUT AFTER I DROVE IT I QUIT MAKING MAKING FUN OF IT AND I WANTED IT. IT CAME LOWERED WITH TOKICO STRUTS AND EIBOK SPRINGS, FULL EXHAUST, 16" WHEELS, HEADLIGHT CONV. I PUT THE ROLL BAR IN IT, AND OF COURSE THE TURBO.
http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a157/FOURX4TRUX/
AND THE OTHER PICS ON THERE WILL KINDA EXPLAIN MY NAME AND WHY I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT TURBO'S. I HAVE BUILT SOME THE BIGGEST MALL CRAWLERS AND SOME OF THE BEST ROCK CRAWLERS AND EVEN A FEW MUSTANGS BUT NEVER PLAYED WITH A TURBO. I BOUGHT THE CAR FOR MY GIRLFRIEND BUT AFTER I DROVE IT I QUIT MAKING MAKING FUN OF IT AND I WANTED IT. IT CAME LOWERED WITH TOKICO STRUTS AND EIBOK SPRINGS, FULL EXHAUST, 16" WHEELS, HEADLIGHT CONV. I PUT THE ROLL BAR IN IT, AND OF COURSE THE TURBO.
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10-03-2008, 01:11 PM
#29
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I know the 1.6L already had a check valve in that line, not sure bout the 1.8L, buit id assume its the same.
oh and fourX, thats a bad place for the air filter, hot rad air for the loss. Put it over on the fender behind the light.
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10-03-2008, 03:21 PM
#30
I just got home to check the pics.
Your wastegate arm is fully adjustable. Your spool is already gonna suck big tasty walrus ballz anyways, so there won't be any harm in backing off the tension a little. I'd start with the door just barely loose, ie, no tension in the wastegate spring holding the door closed.
And I don't see your MAF anywhere.
I can't even begin to guess what your manifold looks like, or how your oil return is routed... needs better pictures.
And AC or PS or CC are fine by themselves... but all 3 together = YOU RIDE THE BIG GAY FAILBOAT TO THE BOTTOM OF THE GAYIANAS TRENCH ... and you like it!
Your wastegate arm is fully adjustable. Your spool is already gonna suck big tasty walrus ballz anyways, so there won't be any harm in backing off the tension a little. I'd start with the door just barely loose, ie, no tension in the wastegate spring holding the door closed.
And I don't see your MAF anywhere.
I can't even begin to guess what your manifold looks like, or how your oil return is routed... needs better pictures.
And AC or PS or CC are fine by themselves... but all 3 together = YOU RIDE THE BIG GAY FAILBOAT TO THE BOTTOM OF THE GAYIANAS TRENCH ... and you like it!
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10-04-2008, 08:20 PM
#31
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is the bipes worth the extra money vs. the sebring?
what year 323gtx do i get a pcv for?
where do i get a o2 clamp? flying miata my only option?
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10-04-2008, 09:26 PM
#32
The Bipes is more capable than the Sebring. The Bipes will pull timing based on RPM and IAT. The Sebring on RPM and Boost. The Bipes is better and are available often in the classifieds used.
Any year 323gtx I think is fine... don't know if there are different part numbers. If there are, buy the newest year.
Get your 02 clamp from OLDERGUY, a moderator on this forum... or buy one in the classifieds.
Don't forget to capitalize the first word in a sentence... yes, this is that kind of forum.
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10-05-2008, 06:02 PM
#33
Your oil drain won't work... you'll burn oil like crazy. It must be downhill from the turbo all the way to where it opens into the pan. Yours has to climb up that 90* fitting screwed into the pan, so it WILL NOT DRAIN. Other than that the hardware looks fine. Also be aware that 7 psi from that turbo is a lot different than 7 psi from a greddy. You'll need a lot of fuel and possibly and intercooler to run 7psi on that turbo.
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10-05-2008, 06:20 PM
#34
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+1 on what Arkmage said. the oil drain needs to come into the side of the pan, not the bottom. and the 12:1 disc you have in the vortech runs a little rich with the greddy system at 5.5psi. your huge turbo even at 5.5 psi will need much much much more fuel. up at 7psi you'll need that intercooler and something more for fueling.
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10-06-2008, 09:44 AM
#35
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Thanks for all the help, but my cheap build just doubled in price with all the bandaids i need to make this work. o2 clamp and a bipes is ordered, anybody got a wideband they want to sell?
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10-06-2008, 11:02 AM
#36
^Please tell me you bought those used? They're for sale in the classifieds al the time.
Also, a fuel pressure gauge will help you tune in conjunction with the wideband. I'd try and sell the Vortech and re-invest funds towards a BEGi 2025 AFPR.
When you install the Bipes, TAKE YOUR TIME!!! Don't get in a hurry under the dash and cut a wire too short because you're all cramped up. Remove the passenger seat to give yourself more room, and unhook the wiring harness from the firewall as far back as you can reach so you can pull it out a decent length to give more room to work.
The pressure gauge is best mounted on the line between the rail and the Vortech... here's a link when I did mine... it's a DIY dual feed rail, but you can modify yours accordingly:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4948
****-hot mounting method:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9645
Also, a fuel pressure gauge will help you tune in conjunction with the wideband. I'd try and sell the Vortech and re-invest funds towards a BEGi 2025 AFPR.
When you install the Bipes, TAKE YOUR TIME!!! Don't get in a hurry under the dash and cut a wire too short because you're all cramped up. Remove the passenger seat to give yourself more room, and unhook the wiring harness from the firewall as far back as you can reach so you can pull it out a decent length to give more room to work.
The pressure gauge is best mounted on the line between the rail and the Vortech... here's a link when I did mine... it's a DIY dual feed rail, but you can modify yours accordingly:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4948
****-hot mounting method:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9645
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10-07-2008, 08:00 PM
#37
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Just waiting on the mailman to bring me some more toys, its killing me not to drive this thing!
Tried to move air cleaner, i clocked the headlight door motor back, moved the cc, and the ps resevoir just to find the air cleaner is to fat to fit, and im not cutting the hood up any worse than i have.
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10-10-2008, 12:57 PM
#39
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Well the maiden voyage didnt go so good. I left my shop and got on the street, driving very easy, ran it up to third gear and started laying into it. boost gauge came up to about 2 lbs... then nothing. Drove back to shop and tore it apart to find a piece of stainless slag from the header wedged in the hot side. I dont think it hurt it, it has a very small dent in one blade.
Reassembled it and just drove it, seems to run great. It is boosting 4 lbs. the way it is, and I will leave it at that untill i get bipes installed.
Reassembled it and just drove it, seems to run great. It is boosting 4 lbs. the way it is, and I will leave it at that untill i get bipes installed.
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