Ebay Disco Potato
11-10-2010, 04:39 PM
#1
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Ebay Disco Potato
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...em=#vi-content
Because it doesn't say "Garrett" anywhere in the ad, it must be a Chinacharger .. ?
Because it doesn't say "Garrett" anywhere in the ad, it must be a Chinacharger .. ?
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11-10-2010, 04:56 PM
#3
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Yeah, among other clues.
-no standard Garrett markings on the compressor housing
-completely different compressor housing and wheel specs, including a full 11mm of discrepancy between a real Garrett 2860RS and that turbo.
-Garrett does not offer a T25-style 5-bolt outlet turbine housing in a .63 A/R configuration
That turbo isn't even remotely close to a 2860RS in dimension.
Chinese turbos **** me off. Not only do they not advertise or name the turbos with any sort of rhyme or reason, but the turbos that are halfway close to genuine turbos don't perform nearly as well as genuine units do. I cannot understand why folks will spend thousands and thousands on manifold, fueling, ECU, intercooler, clutch, radiator, suspension, brake, etc. upgrades, only to cheap out on the turbo itself and sacrifice a huge amount of performance in the process.
-no standard Garrett markings on the compressor housing
-completely different compressor housing and wheel specs, including a full 11mm of discrepancy between a real Garrett 2860RS and that turbo.
-Garrett does not offer a T25-style 5-bolt outlet turbine housing in a .63 A/R configuration
That turbo isn't even remotely close to a 2860RS in dimension.
Chinese turbos **** me off. Not only do they not advertise or name the turbos with any sort of rhyme or reason, but the turbos that are halfway close to genuine turbos don't perform nearly as well as genuine units do. I cannot understand why folks will spend thousands and thousands on manifold, fueling, ECU, intercooler, clutch, radiator, suspension, brake, etc. upgrades, only to cheap out on the turbo itself and sacrifice a huge amount of performance in the process.
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11-10-2010, 11:21 PM
#5
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Chinese turbos **** me off. Not only do they not advertise or name the turbos with any sort of rhyme or reason, but the turbos that are halfway close to genuine turbos don't perform nearly as well as genuine units do. I cannot understand why folks will spend thousands and thousands on manifold, fueling, ECU, intercooler, clutch, radiator, suspension, brake, etc. upgrades, only to cheap out on the turbo itself and sacrifice a huge amount of performance in the process.
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11-11-2010, 12:08 AM
#6
Chinese turbos **** me off. Not only do they not advertise or name the turbos with any sort of rhyme or reason, but the turbos that are halfway close to genuine turbos don't perform nearly as well as genuine units do. I cannot understand why folks will spend thousands and thousands on manifold, fueling, ECU, intercooler, clutch, radiator, suspension, brake, etc. upgrades, only to cheap out on the turbo itself and sacrifice a huge amount of performance in the process.
I would not say huge amount of power difference. 80% or so compared to genuine, for 30% of the cost.
They're really not that bad at all.
Now don't get me wrong, money no object I'd take the genuine over the china every day, but money IS an object.
Last edited by 18psi; 11-11-2010 at 12:41 AM.
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11-11-2010, 12:52 AM
#7
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1. Cost. Ricelands cost $300, whereas the suspension we intend on upgrading to (Xida Clubsports) is about $1800. Factor of 6x. If Garrett CHRAs were $1800, I could see more folks griping about it, but you can find a used Garrett for under a thousand bucks, and even brand new they are under $1200. Suddenly that 6x is 3x - if Racelands cost $600 we wouldn't have even considered buying them.
Not only is it the cost of the unit, but it's the cost of the supporting mods. How much money have you spent in ECU upgrades, fuel injectors and pumps and rails, clutches, transmissions, motor internals, manifold and downpipe upgrades, gauges and monitoring equipment, etc. only to skimp on the actual turbo itself? You say that it's 80% of the benefit for 30% of the cost, but that just isn't true: If you skimp and scrimp and assemble an entire turbo setup, including a clutch, radiator, ECU and wideband, etc. for $3k, and save $600 on the turbo, you've saved yourself 20%. If you've bought quality parts, invested in a built motor, etc and you have $5000 or $6000, suddenly the $600 you save is only 10%, and you're taking a 20% hit in performance - and suddenly things aren't so rosy.
The performance loss is fairly significant, IMO. Railz is the first person to break 300whp using a "2870", and he only ended up making 270tq at 20psi. There are two or three others with Churbos creating 20+psi in the intake manifold, and none of them are doing 300whp. I make 295tq at 17psi with a genuine Garrett - at 20psi I would likely make 315-320tq. Who else here would spend $600 today to pick up 40ft.lbs of midrange torque on their setup - guaranteed? If I offered a group buy to turbo customers, offering 40tq in the midrange for that kind of money, I'd be a very rich man.
2. Expectation of performance/Intention to upgrade. We never intended on running the Racelands for more than an event or two - we expected Xida Clubsports to be on the market for July 2010, and we assembled the rental in June so we needed a stopgap measure. The Ricelands have served the intended purpose - they let us shake the car down, set some baseline numbers, and ensure that the car was prepped and ready for use as a reliable trackday car. We never intended to use them for a long period of time, and we always intended to upgrade. If folks buy Chinese turbos to do R&D on a manifold while waiting for the GTX3071R, then that's one thing, but you (18psi) and I both know that's not why people buy them. The expectation is that they will perform the same or similar to a genuine Garrett - I had this expectation before I saw half a dozen dyno charts over the last year that presented direct evidence to the contrary. This expectation is propagated by the sales tactics of the people that sell these things - that eBay listing is a perfect example. 47mm compressor wheel on a 2860RS, eh? 350hp capable? I'd be stunned if you could break 200 on it.
I can understand the demand for cheap turbos for folks who are stealing the handicap rail out of a McDonalds bathroom and using it for their EWG dump tube, but when you've got a few thousand bucks worth of quality hardware under the hood, I couldn't see hindering myself with a sub-par snail.
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11-11-2010, 12:56 AM
#8
When (or if) this one ***** the bed I'm going genuine. No doubt about it 
And with me it really wasn't about the money. You know my setup, it isn't exactly a 800 dollar setup put together in a dumpster. For me it was about "the fuss" lol. I'll be strapping it to a dyno some time early spring for a solid tune at 18psi or so. If it doesn't perform as I want it to (and it probably won't), I'll have no problem ditching it for a "real" turbo.
And I'm not knocking you in any way about running the ricelands man. I'm actually kinda excited/thrilled you did. Now I can say I'm running the same coilovers on my car as TrackSpeedEngineering did on their race car
lolol just kidding of course
And with me it really wasn't about the money. You know my setup, it isn't exactly a 800 dollar setup put together in a dumpster. For me it was about "the fuss" lol. I'll be strapping it to a dyno some time early spring for a solid tune at 18psi or so. If it doesn't perform as I want it to (and it probably won't), I'll have no problem ditching it for a "real" turbo.
And I'm not knocking you in any way about running the ricelands man. I'm actually kinda excited/thrilled you did. Now I can say I'm running the same coilovers on my car as TrackSpeedEngineering did on their race car
lolol just kidding of course
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11-11-2010, 12:57 AM
#9
I dunno.
I see your point...but you're talking about a part that is easily removed, that people like to upgrade/change/experiment with, and that is more often viewed as a service life item value-wise as opposed to an efficiency base.
Most of us have so many other factors to optimize in our setups that we will not miss the difference until we've upgrade exhaust, injectors, tuned properly and such. Also, several of us are on the wrong part of the compressor map due to poor turbo size matching anyhow.
Now...once you've tuned well, made a no-compromises setup, tuned again, and found the right frame and compressor for your goals...then you're an idiot if you're still running a knock off and losing that last 10%.
I see your point...but you're talking about a part that is easily removed, that people like to upgrade/change/experiment with, and that is more often viewed as a service life item value-wise as opposed to an efficiency base.
Most of us have so many other factors to optimize in our setups that we will not miss the difference until we've upgrade exhaust, injectors, tuned properly and such. Also, several of us are on the wrong part of the compressor map due to poor turbo size matching anyhow.
Now...once you've tuned well, made a no-compromises setup, tuned again, and found the right frame and compressor for your goals...then you're an idiot if you're still running a knock off and losing that last 10%.
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11-11-2010, 01:12 AM
#10
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philosophically i get where sav is coming from. its true. but, this is mt, and if the chinese want to commoditize turbo's thats good for us. they will suck for a while, sure, but hopefully at some point they will become viable. options is good.
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11-11-2010, 01:18 AM
#11
look back 3 years. chineese turbos were literally glued together.
now they not only WORK, but produce power, and on average last AT LEAST a couple years if not more. This is very big progress. At this rate in a couple years we'll have even better turbos that make even closer to genuine turbo power if not same altogether.
We shall see.
now they not only WORK, but produce power, and on average last AT LEAST a couple years if not more. This is very big progress. At this rate in a couple years we'll have even better turbos that make even closer to genuine turbo power if not same altogether.
We shall see.
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11-11-2010, 01:46 AM
#14
This is the only forum im regularly on so i didnt know it got whored around that much.
as far as comparisons between china chargers and garretts....
the first turbo i put on my 96 was one of the 2854 hybrid chinachargers from BEGI then not to long after putting it on i had problems with it burning oil. i pulled it off and replaced it with a Garrett 2560 and there was no comparrison. the 2560 spooled so much smoother and much more quickly that the hybrid.
i dont know what the measurments of the hybrid are compared to a 2560. by visual comparison the hybrid was a hell of alot smaller than the garrett.
as far as comparisons between china chargers and garretts....
the first turbo i put on my 96 was one of the 2854 hybrid chinachargers from BEGI then not to long after putting it on i had problems with it burning oil. i pulled it off and replaced it with a Garrett 2560 and there was no comparrison. the 2560 spooled so much smoother and much more quickly that the hybrid.
i dont know what the measurments of the hybrid are compared to a 2560. by visual comparison the hybrid was a hell of alot smaller than the garrett.
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11-11-2010, 10:12 AM
#15
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FWIW I am only speaking for myself in this response.
My Chinese 2870 cost me $300 shipped to my door. A new GT2871 is $1291 + shipping from ATP. So it is 4x the cost of the Chinese turbo initially. That to me is a large chunk of change in one spending. I also plan on going with V-Bands in the future so they I would have to spend another $350 to buy to buy the Tial housing. Making the total cost 5x what the Chinese Turbo is. If I buy they turbo with the V-Band housing it is $1391 up front. So while we might spend a lot on everything together, adding in an extra grand all of a sudden is something some of us just cant afford at once.
I will also agree that the performance loss is something that has to be taken in acount. But I do not belive it is worth 4x the price to get an extra 40ft/lbs. At least not right now. When I have the money yes, but when I was broke in the middle of an engine build it just was not happening.
I honestly hope to not be running my Chinese Turbo for more then maybe a year. It was simply a cheap turbo to hold me over until I could afford to go to V-Bands. I know some people never plan on upgrading and that is their loss.
There are two fundamental differences between us running Ricelands and the proliferation of Chinese turbos.
1. Cost. Ricelands cost $300, whereas the suspension we intend on upgrading to (Xida Clubsports) is about $1800. Factor of 6x. If Garrett CHRAs were $1800, I could see more folks griping about it, but you can find a used Garrett for under a thousand bucks, and even brand new they are under $1200. Suddenly that 6x is 3x - if Racelands cost $600 we wouldn't have even considered buying them.
Not only is it the cost of the unit, but it's the cost of the supporting mods. How much money have you spent in ECU upgrades, fuel injectors and pumps and rails, clutches, transmissions, motor internals, manifold and downpipe upgrades, gauges and monitoring equipment, etc. only to skimp on the actual turbo itself? You say that it's 80% of the benefit for 30% of the cost, but that just isn't true: If you skimp and scrimp and assemble an entire turbo setup, including a clutch, radiator, ECU and wideband, etc. for $3k, and save $600 on the turbo, you've saved yourself 20%. If you've bought quality parts, invested in a built motor, etc and you have $5000 or $6000, suddenly the $600 you save is only 10%, and you're taking a 20% hit in performance - and suddenly things aren't so rosy.
The performance loss is fairly significant, IMO. Railz is the first person to break 300whp using a "2870", and he only ended up making 270tq at 20psi. There are two or three others with Churbos creating 20+psi in the intake manifold, and none of them are doing 300whp. I make 295tq at 17psi with a genuine Garrett - at 20psi I would likely make 315-320tq. Who else here would spend $600 today to pick up 40ft.lbs of midrange torque on their setup - guaranteed? If I offered a group buy to turbo customers, offering 40tq in the midrange for that kind of money, I'd be a very rich man.
1. Cost. Ricelands cost $300, whereas the suspension we intend on upgrading to (Xida Clubsports) is about $1800. Factor of 6x. If Garrett CHRAs were $1800, I could see more folks griping about it, but you can find a used Garrett for under a thousand bucks, and even brand new they are under $1200. Suddenly that 6x is 3x - if Racelands cost $600 we wouldn't have even considered buying them.
Not only is it the cost of the unit, but it's the cost of the supporting mods. How much money have you spent in ECU upgrades, fuel injectors and pumps and rails, clutches, transmissions, motor internals, manifold and downpipe upgrades, gauges and monitoring equipment, etc. only to skimp on the actual turbo itself? You say that it's 80% of the benefit for 30% of the cost, but that just isn't true: If you skimp and scrimp and assemble an entire turbo setup, including a clutch, radiator, ECU and wideband, etc. for $3k, and save $600 on the turbo, you've saved yourself 20%. If you've bought quality parts, invested in a built motor, etc and you have $5000 or $6000, suddenly the $600 you save is only 10%, and you're taking a 20% hit in performance - and suddenly things aren't so rosy.
The performance loss is fairly significant, IMO. Railz is the first person to break 300whp using a "2870", and he only ended up making 270tq at 20psi. There are two or three others with Churbos creating 20+psi in the intake manifold, and none of them are doing 300whp. I make 295tq at 17psi with a genuine Garrett - at 20psi I would likely make 315-320tq. Who else here would spend $600 today to pick up 40ft.lbs of midrange torque on their setup - guaranteed? If I offered a group buy to turbo customers, offering 40tq in the midrange for that kind of money, I'd be a very rich man.
I will also agree that the performance loss is something that has to be taken in acount. But I do not belive it is worth 4x the price to get an extra 40ft/lbs. At least not right now. When I have the money yes, but when I was broke in the middle of an engine build it just was not happening.
2. Expectation of performance/Intention to upgrade. We never intended on running the Racelands for more than an event or two - we expected Xida Clubsports to be on the market for July 2010, and we assembled the rental in June so we needed a stopgap measure. The Ricelands have served the intended purpose - they let us shake the car down, set some baseline numbers, and ensure that the car was prepped and ready for use as a reliable trackday car. We never intended to use them for a long period of time, and we always intended to upgrade. If folks buy Chinese turbos to do R&D on a manifold while waiting for the GTX3071R, then that's one thing, but you (18psi) and I both know that's not why people buy them. The expectation is that they will perform the same or similar to a genuine Garrett - I had this expectation before I saw half a dozen dyno charts over the last year that presented direct evidence to the contrary. This expectation is propagated by the sales tactics of the people that sell these things - that eBay listing is a perfect example. 47mm compressor wheel on a 2860RS, eh? 350hp capable? I'd be stunned if you could break 200 on it.
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11-11-2010, 03:16 PM
#17
I made 298/296 on a Mustang dyno with the China 2870. Add 12% for dynojet numbers and I was at 333/331. Peak boost was 25 psi. And oh yea, this was with a lil 1.6 and before the Honda intake manifold.
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11-11-2010, 03:27 PM
#18
I think it's also worth mentioning that that turbo I used is still alive with about 10k on it. In fact we just put about 2000 miles on it and beat the hell out of it at the gap.
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