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Old 12-03-2015, 08:08 PM   #1
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Default Flow Force injector help

Car: 60k '04 MSM, FM little enchilada package (intercooler, dp, exhaust, piping, intake), MSPNPpro, DW200 pump (tested at 60psi), LC2 freshly calibrated, flow force 630 injectors.

On most installs, if I load DIY's base map and change required fuel to suit my injectors, the **** runs reasonably well. NOT the case for this car. Tell it that it has 630 injectors (which should technically be 740 because NB), and it runs super lean and won't start and run well at all.

So I figured that wasn't right, and increased required fuel by playing with the injector size. I entered 350cc injectors (required fuel of 9.0) before it started and ran half assed. It's still super sensitive to fuel changes, I can't let auto tune even look at the idle cells, or it starts to oscillate up and down then die.

Dead time is set to .63, as indicated by this site:

Instructions ? Flow Force Injectors

I calculated my curve according to the .116ms/v instructions, so I'm using 10.2=155.2, 11.2=138.2, 12.2=118.4, 13.2=100, 14.2=81.5, and 15.2=63.1. Those are percentages, because despite the ms/v specification, TS uses percentages.

Anything above idle is still untuned, but trying to go for a drive results in pig rich conditions, cruise around 14s which is fine, but as soon as you touch the pedal it's in the 9s, supposedly it wants less fuel in boost at 3000rpm than it wants at idle.

Tune is attached, what am I missing??

Please note fuel table is hardly touched. I went under load 3-5 times to ~3k, and that's all autotune touched, as you can see by the area in the mid 40's around 70kpa.
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File Type: msq MSM FF tune.msq (224.8 KB, 188 views)
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Old 12-03-2015, 08:43 PM   #2
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base map for stock/ev6 injectors will never work for ev14 injectors. ve map will be completely different for idle

this has never worked
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Old 12-03-2015, 09:08 PM   #3
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Yeah, my VE map doesn't include AFR target and it is an entirely different shape than DIYPNP basemaps.

I also run reqfuel of 10.0 to get idle VE values in the 58-62 range on e85. I can run 4.2, which I think is the calculated value for these injectors, but then all my VE numbers are 120+ from idle.

Seems you are around the same ballpark?
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Old 12-03-2015, 09:27 PM   #4
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Yes I am. If this is what's supposed to happen I'll just tune it and go. Just seems...wrong
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Old 12-03-2015, 10:55 PM   #5
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I would love to see what you come up with. Mine is the same with my exocet. Just got it running.
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Old 12-04-2015, 12:37 AM   #6
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I would be grateful to anyone who posted a flow force ve fuel map.

Really any ev14 ve fuel map would help.
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Old 12-04-2015, 12:51 AM   #7
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Its nowhere near perfect. But here is what I have. Might give you a general idea of the shape. Req fuel: 4.4






3d view:

Attached Thumbnails
Flow Force injector help-pyqment.png   Flow Force injector help-fwci7y8.png  
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Old 12-04-2015, 12:58 AM   #8
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Here is what I run, this is e85 though. 10.0 reqfuel. Not tuned very well over 5500-5800 at the moment, but it's close enough to not explode.



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Flow Force injector help-uihaqhe.jpg   Flow Force injector help-whwslla.jpg  
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Old 12-04-2015, 12:59 AM   #9
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Wow, we both have that same hump right around 5k rpm. Cool.
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Old 12-04-2015, 01:04 AM   #10
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Crazy flat with RPM too, at least compared to the basemaps. Are you "including AFR target," might explain why I have a dip around cruise and you don't.
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Old 12-04-2015, 01:07 AM   #11
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I have that dip too, but not as strong. Heres my AFR targets. Include AFR target? Rings a bell.

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Old 12-04-2015, 01:14 AM   #12
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I think include AFR target will kinda tune the whole table to 14.7, then do math to get at the AFR targets you set. That way you can supposedly change AFR table without having to retune the VE table, but it don't work right for me so I turn it off.

I don't run so lean, but I also only get like 20-23mpg on this corn stuff currently. I'm thinking of trying to go to a load bearing dyno...

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Old 12-04-2015, 01:27 AM   #13
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I get 30+ on road trips.

I'm getting on one before next track season. After I get the flex fuel sensor and new fuel setup in. Looking for a safe 180hp track tune. Going to try and tune on 89 to be ready for California **** and not have to mix in 100. Low boost but dial in the timing. Also some stress tests that hustler talks about in the dyno tuning thread.

Hopefully I'll get it all figured out
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Old 12-04-2015, 05:52 AM   #14
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I used to get around 28 on 91, so I'm getting around 30% less which I guess is normal. My fuel tank feels pretty small sometimes, especially when I have to find e85.

Curly, the only other thing I forgot to mention earlier is you don't want to plot deadtime off that linear .116 value. The ms3 can use non-linear voltage correction, so you should use it. When my alt **** the bed I had to put something crazy like .3 temporally to keep from running so lean, the point I'm trying to make is .116 is crap at really low volts. My poverty MS2 has to use linear deadtime correction, cuz it sucks.

Aidan made this IIRC

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Old 12-04-2015, 09:13 AM   #15
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Oh hai. Forgot I did that. That's why my numbers are different.
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Old 12-04-2015, 09:46 AM   #16
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Glad you made this thread Curly. Autotune gave me a similar map with higher VE at idle than mid-range. I had the same question but never got around to asking it.
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Old 12-04-2015, 09:50 AM   #17
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For the 10 millionth time don't autotune idle.
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Old 12-04-2015, 09:55 AM   #18
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I don't think curly would do something like that.

I would suggest using the separate idle VE from the very start though, there is no reason not to use that cool feature.
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Old 12-04-2015, 09:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
I don't think curly would do something like that.

I would suggest using the separate idle VE from the very start though, there is no reason not to use that cool feature.
Read the post above mine.
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Old 12-04-2015, 10:04 AM   #20
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VEE MUST, BREAK HIM!!

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