Full Lightweight Timing Kit
01-21-2009, 05:36 AM
#41
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Pieces look awsome, top notch. But I also agree that the market here would probably be very small. The price per gain factor is low, and there is alot more I would want to spend $350 on first. Maybe if I had a very expensive, freshly built engine, and for some reason didnt have the stock gears/hardware, I would maybe buy these. I think cheap is the ticket, vs. lightweight. Get me a well made set of aluminum gears for less than others on the market, and I might bite.
Good luck with the parts though, they really do look great.
Good luck with the parts though, they really do look great.
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01-21-2009, 12:19 PM
#42
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Yea I'm going to take this over to m.net, and a couple other forums to see who I can reach as well.
The cam gears are going to be right on with the price of what everyone else's are, but a lot of you don't run cam gears at all. Some of the turbo guys could really change the characteristics of the motors by dialing in their cams though.
Some of the benefits:
Better spool
Top End/Low end power shift
Increase in horsepower
Increase in torque
Nearly all stock cam timings are dialed in with emissions in mind, so their are gains to be had by playing with the timing. If you could get 10 whp with a 200 dollar investment and better spool. Thats not so bad. The lower gears are a benefit, better key way fit, and decreased rotational inertia. Which regardless of what anyone thinks the major effects of an under drive pulley doesn't come from under driving the accessories its actually the weight you take off that you feel more then anything. These don't weigh as much as a crank pulley, but a lot of people don't want to remove the crank pulley on our cars because of harmonics. So this is a way to get at some of that reduction without compromising your engine.
The lightweight feature of them is just a feature, the big thing is, your getting the feature with some cutting edge lightweight design. On top of that because I haven't started to resell my products (yet) I can offer prices that are right on target to a part thats been marked up twice by other vendors.
The cam gears are going to be right on with the price of what everyone else's are, but a lot of you don't run cam gears at all. Some of the turbo guys could really change the characteristics of the motors by dialing in their cams though.
Some of the benefits:
Better spool
Top End/Low end power shift
Increase in horsepower
Increase in torque
Nearly all stock cam timings are dialed in with emissions in mind, so their are gains to be had by playing with the timing. If you could get 10 whp with a 200 dollar investment and better spool. Thats not so bad. The lower gears are a benefit, better key way fit, and decreased rotational inertia. Which regardless of what anyone thinks the major effects of an under drive pulley doesn't come from under driving the accessories its actually the weight you take off that you feel more then anything. These don't weigh as much as a crank pulley, but a lot of people don't want to remove the crank pulley on our cars because of harmonics. So this is a way to get at some of that reduction without compromising your engine.
The lightweight feature of them is just a feature, the big thing is, your getting the feature with some cutting edge lightweight design. On top of that because I haven't started to resell my products (yet) I can offer prices that are right on target to a part thats been marked up twice by other vendors.
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01-21-2009, 01:19 PM
#43
Yea I'm going to take this over to m.net, and a couple other forums to see who I can reach as well.
The cam gears are going to be right on with the price of what everyone else's are, but a lot of you don't run cam gears at all. Some of the turbo guys could really change the characteristics of the motors by dialing in their cams though.
Some of the benefits:
Better spool
Top End/Low end power shift
Increase in horsepower
Increase in torque
Nearly all stock cam timings are dialed in with emissions in mind, so their are gains to be had by playing with the timing. If you could get 10 whp with a 200 dollar investment and better spool. Thats not so bad. The lower gears are a benefit, better key way fit, and decreased rotational inertia. Which regardless of what anyone thinks the major effects of an under drive pulley doesn't come from under driving the accessories its actually the weight you take off that you feel more then anything. These don't weigh as much as a crank pulley, but a lot of people don't want to remove the crank pulley on our cars because of harmonics. So this is a way to get at some of that reduction without compromising your engine.
The lightweight feature of them is just a feature, the big thing is, your getting the feature with some cutting edge lightweight design. On top of that because I haven't started to resell my products (yet) I can offer prices that are right on target to a part thats been marked up twice by other vendors.
The cam gears are going to be right on with the price of what everyone else's are, but a lot of you don't run cam gears at all. Some of the turbo guys could really change the characteristics of the motors by dialing in their cams though.
Some of the benefits:
Better spool
Top End/Low end power shift
Increase in horsepower
Increase in torque
Nearly all stock cam timings are dialed in with emissions in mind, so their are gains to be had by playing with the timing. If you could get 10 whp with a 200 dollar investment and better spool. Thats not so bad. The lower gears are a benefit, better key way fit, and decreased rotational inertia. Which regardless of what anyone thinks the major effects of an under drive pulley doesn't come from under driving the accessories its actually the weight you take off that you feel more then anything. These don't weigh as much as a crank pulley, but a lot of people don't want to remove the crank pulley on our cars because of harmonics. So this is a way to get at some of that reduction without compromising your engine.
The lightweight feature of them is just a feature, the big thing is, your getting the feature with some cutting edge lightweight design. On top of that because I haven't started to resell my products (yet) I can offer prices that are right on target to a part thats been marked up twice by other vendors.
But sure they look good and if they're CHEAP people would buy them here. But price/$$, there are better things most here would rather do than cam gears. You can dial in a set of cam gears for better spool, more low end torque, and more high end power. Pick one.
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01-21-2009, 01:53 PM
#44
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Then pat, please present your mathematical proof that you can prove an engine works just like that. To me its a differential system with clear inflection, and critical points which compromises of all three can be made. There is an optimal timing point which represents hotter flame (more energy) in the exhaust manifold and a later closing IVC for more fill at high rpm. There is a setting that maximizes energy from burnt charge and accounts for little reversion which maximizes torque. There is also a setting which maximizes chamber burn, and sets the cylinder up for maximum fill for higher rpm (max hp). There is also every point inbetween these which represents a whole set compromises between them.
My products were made for a build toward ultimate performance. You don't build a GT40 by putting in a high horsepower engine. Thats called a cobra. You don't build one from making a great stock suspension. Thats called a Miata. You don't get one from making the lightest weight vehicle you can manage thats a prius. The merging of these ideas creates an adrenalin pumping experience that cannot be rigidly fixed to a dyno, or to a number. Show me the number the represents the fun a stock miata gives to its user. I missed that somewhere in the sales pitch. I'm dialing in on those same charaterstics that makes these cars fun to drive. More responsive, edgier, more feedback, thats what people appreciate.
If you notice my parts all have a theme. Efficiency, and transition. My ITB manifold when its done will have the throttle plate sticking into the port it will be so close to the head. This is increased transient response. My lightweight cam timing kit and pulley kit reduces both load and inertia on the engine, while increasing horsepower. I would assume if you are buying my lightening kit you are going to purchase an SFI approved lightweight flywheel, lightweight clutch, wheels, and etcetera.
My company doesn't just make what works, its called BOUNDARY engineering for a reason. The motto is "Engineering to the edge." There is not a single company out there that uses the technology I do because the manufacturing process are not well known and there surely isn't that many people who have designed for years from tooling to finished product which means I can offer cost savings.
Its the continous improvement of many small things which makes the whole. I have already done the calculations. In all honesty the lightweight components (pulleys and timing set) are worth 6-10 whp on a 300 whp car on an acceleration based (600 rpm/s) dynomemeter. Roughly 2 percent, rev matches are faster, and this further accents lightweight clutch and flywheel combinations which cannot be made lighter due to resonance problems. Aluminum is a good absorber of resonance thats why its preferred over steel or carbon fiber for this task. This is another good thing about these parts. They will by some small margin take away resonances in the crankshaft.
I do want my parts to work, and I do want them to be affordable, but I want them to be a cut above to. If you want to throw crap parts on your car that just work then fine, but why throw crap parts on there when you can have mine for a small pittance more. The difference isn't going to be huge, but then there isn't that much difference between a fiesta and a ferrari either now is there? 4 wheels, motor, brakes, gasoline, and oil. The devil is in the details.
I don't know why you continue to post on my threads bashing my products. The worst thing you could do is perturb people away from what I make, and I decide its not worth it to make parts for you guys, or I have insufficent money to make the parts you do want. I've spent a healthy sum to bring this business online. Its not my bread winner, but its a fun hobby business, a hobby business which I will not make a money pit. These are good parts, they have many advantages over what I've seen on the market, weight is just one component of that.
My products were made for a build toward ultimate performance. You don't build a GT40 by putting in a high horsepower engine. Thats called a cobra. You don't build one from making a great stock suspension. Thats called a Miata. You don't get one from making the lightest weight vehicle you can manage thats a prius. The merging of these ideas creates an adrenalin pumping experience that cannot be rigidly fixed to a dyno, or to a number. Show me the number the represents the fun a stock miata gives to its user. I missed that somewhere in the sales pitch. I'm dialing in on those same charaterstics that makes these cars fun to drive. More responsive, edgier, more feedback, thats what people appreciate.
If you notice my parts all have a theme. Efficiency, and transition. My ITB manifold when its done will have the throttle plate sticking into the port it will be so close to the head. This is increased transient response. My lightweight cam timing kit and pulley kit reduces both load and inertia on the engine, while increasing horsepower. I would assume if you are buying my lightening kit you are going to purchase an SFI approved lightweight flywheel, lightweight clutch, wheels, and etcetera.
My company doesn't just make what works, its called BOUNDARY engineering for a reason. The motto is "Engineering to the edge." There is not a single company out there that uses the technology I do because the manufacturing process are not well known and there surely isn't that many people who have designed for years from tooling to finished product which means I can offer cost savings.
Its the continous improvement of many small things which makes the whole. I have already done the calculations. In all honesty the lightweight components (pulleys and timing set) are worth 6-10 whp on a 300 whp car on an acceleration based (600 rpm/s) dynomemeter. Roughly 2 percent, rev matches are faster, and this further accents lightweight clutch and flywheel combinations which cannot be made lighter due to resonance problems. Aluminum is a good absorber of resonance thats why its preferred over steel or carbon fiber for this task. This is another good thing about these parts. They will by some small margin take away resonances in the crankshaft.
I do want my parts to work, and I do want them to be affordable, but I want them to be a cut above to. If you want to throw crap parts on your car that just work then fine, but why throw crap parts on there when you can have mine for a small pittance more. The difference isn't going to be huge, but then there isn't that much difference between a fiesta and a ferrari either now is there? 4 wheels, motor, brakes, gasoline, and oil. The devil is in the details.
I don't know why you continue to post on my threads bashing my products. The worst thing you could do is perturb people away from what I make, and I decide its not worth it to make parts for you guys, or I have insufficent money to make the parts you do want. I've spent a healthy sum to bring this business online. Its not my bread winner, but its a fun hobby business, a hobby business which I will not make a money pit. These are good parts, they have many advantages over what I've seen on the market, weight is just one component of that.
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01-21-2009, 02:01 PM
#45
TravisR, I hate to get in the middle of this, but I think you are forgetting to look at the big picture. 99% of the people on this site dont care about cutting edge, they care about how cheap it is and how much power it produces.
You will have a much easier time selling your cam gears for a Ferrari or a Porsche then you will for a Miata.
I don't doubt your expertise, or the quality of your product. But I think you skipped a critical step in designing your product, its to study your demographic.
You will have a much easier time selling your cam gears for a Ferrari or a Porsche then you will for a Miata.
I don't doubt your expertise, or the quality of your product. But I think you skipped a critical step in designing your product, its to study your demographic.
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01-21-2009, 02:31 PM
#48
Then pat, please present your mathematical proof that you can prove an engine works just like that. To me its a differential system with clear inflection, and critical points which compromises of all three can be made. There is an optimal timing point which represents hotter flame (more energy) in the exhaust manifold and a later closing IVC for more fill at high rpm. There is a setting that maximizes energy from burnt charge and accounts for little reversion which maximizes torque. There is also a setting which maximizes chamber burn, and sets the cylinder up for maximum fill for higher rpm (max hp). There is also every point inbetween these which represents a whole set compromises between them.
Indeed, my point exactly. All those points are at different RPMs. The factory cams are somewhere in the middle, not heavily oriented toward any one specific thing. Of course you can adjust cam timing and move your power band around, etc. Nothing new there. But you can't set these cams to do everything at the same time. That was my point.
As far as intertia, I'd need A LOT of data and a lot of numbers, and even then it would still be an estimate. My only point was that the BENEFITS of weight savings on cam gears is NEGLIGABLE in the grand scheme of things. That's it. If I had to guess, it's less than 1/2 of a % reduction in total inertia. Have you done the math?
My products were made for a build toward ultimate performance. You don't build a GT40 by putting in a high horsepower engine. Thats called a cobra. You don't build one from making a great stock suspension. Thats called a Miata. You don't get one from making the lightest weight vehicle you can manage thats a prius. The merging of these ideas creates an adrenalin pumping experience that cannot be rigidly fixed to a dyno, or to a number. Show me the number the represents the fun a stock miata gives to its user. I missed that somewhere in the sales pitch. I'm dialing in on those same charaterstics that makes these cars fun to drive. More responsive, edgier, more feedback, thats what people appreciate.
If you notice my parts all have a theme. Efficiency, and transition. My ITB manifold when its done will have the throttle plate sticking into the port it will be so close to the head. This is increased transient response. My lightweight cam timing kit and pulley kit reduces both load and inertia on the engine, while increasing horsepower. I would assume if you are buying my lightening kit you are going to purchase an SFI approved lightweight flywheel, lightweight clutch, wheels, and etcetera.
My company doesn't just make what works, its called BOUNDARY engineering for a reason. The motto is "Engineering to the edge." There is not a single company out there that uses the technology I do because the manufacturing process are not well known and there surely isn't that many people who have designed for years from tooling to finished product which means I can offer cost savings.
Its the continous improvement of many small things which makes the whole. I have already done the calculations. In all honesty the lightweight components (pulleys and timing set) are worth 6-10 whp on a 300 whp car on an acceleration based (600 rpm/s) dynomemeter. Roughly 2 percent, rev matches are faster, and this further accents lightweight clutch and flywheel combinations which cannot be made lighter due to resonance problems. Aluminum is a good absorber of resonance thats why its preferred over steel or carbon fiber for this task. This is another good thing about these parts. They will by some small margin take away resonances in the crankshaft.
I do want my parts to work, and I do want them to be affordable, but I want them to be a cut above to. If you want to throw crap parts on your car that just work then fine, but why throw crap parts on there when you can have mine for a small pittance more. The difference isn't going to be huge, but then there isn't that much difference between a fiesta and a ferrari either now is there? 4 wheels, motor, brakes, gasoline, and oil. The devil is in the details.
I don't know why you continue to post on my threads bashing my products. The worst thing you could do is perturb people away from what I make, and I decide its not worth it to make parts for you guys, or I have insufficent money to make the parts you do want. I've spent a healthy sum to bring this business online. Its not my bread winner, but its a fun hobby business, a hobby business which I will not make a money pit. These are good parts, they have many advantages over what I've seen on the market, weight is just one component of that.
Where did you get 6-10whp at the 300 whp level and 600 rpm/s? I'm SURE that's figuring that the gears are dialed in as to move the power band up. IE-the gains are from adjustment, not from "my gears weigh 1 pound less, that's 6-10 whp". That's my point. I could buy some cheaper gears and get the same gain. The difference in whp measured on a dyno, given the same cam timing between a set of whatever adjustable gears and these will be negligible. So for the HP/$$ minded person (like 99% of this forum) they'll choose whatever is proven to work and is cheap.
The thing is you're targeting the wrong crowd. Don't let me stop you though. I'm just saying that I might actually buy a set if they were cheap and proved to be just as good as any other gear out there. Fact is these gears are not significantly different from any other gear from a performance standpoint, and they don't have a track record. Some will be hesitant to buy them because they're new. Some will hesitate because they only have 3 bolts holding them and other 3 bolt gears have proven to fail. And some will hesitate to buy them because their carbon fiber, which might shatter or something. And some will hesitate to buy them because they're expensive. Or any combination of the above. That's what's going against you.
Only thing going for you is they're pretty and lighter than most gears. That's not enough to sway too many customers your way though.
I honestly wasn't "bashing" your products. Sorry if you took it that way. I'm not saying they're poorly made, or will fail, etc. But I doubt that any meaningful gains will come from weight reduction of these gears. That and I think you're building stuff that's not needed. IE-you could build other things that people WOULD buy. But, if you want to build stuff like this, fine. If it were me I'd build a few other things that the miata community is dying to have, some of which would be easier from a design and manufacturing standpoint.
Indeed, my point exactly. All those points are at different RPMs. The factory cams are somewhere in the middle, not heavily oriented toward any one specific thing. Of course you can adjust cam timing and move your power band around, etc. Nothing new there. But you can't set these cams to do everything at the same time. That was my point.
As far as intertia, I'd need A LOT of data and a lot of numbers, and even then it would still be an estimate. My only point was that the BENEFITS of weight savings on cam gears is NEGLIGABLE in the grand scheme of things. That's it. If I had to guess, it's less than 1/2 of a % reduction in total inertia. Have you done the math?
My products were made for a build toward ultimate performance. You don't build a GT40 by putting in a high horsepower engine. Thats called a cobra. You don't build one from making a great stock suspension. Thats called a Miata. You don't get one from making the lightest weight vehicle you can manage thats a prius. The merging of these ideas creates an adrenalin pumping experience that cannot be rigidly fixed to a dyno, or to a number. Show me the number the represents the fun a stock miata gives to its user. I missed that somewhere in the sales pitch. I'm dialing in on those same charaterstics that makes these cars fun to drive. More responsive, edgier, more feedback, thats what people appreciate.
If you notice my parts all have a theme. Efficiency, and transition. My ITB manifold when its done will have the throttle plate sticking into the port it will be so close to the head. This is increased transient response. My lightweight cam timing kit and pulley kit reduces both load and inertia on the engine, while increasing horsepower. I would assume if you are buying my lightening kit you are going to purchase an SFI approved lightweight flywheel, lightweight clutch, wheels, and etcetera.
My company doesn't just make what works, its called BOUNDARY engineering for a reason. The motto is "Engineering to the edge." There is not a single company out there that uses the technology I do because the manufacturing process are not well known and there surely isn't that many people who have designed for years from tooling to finished product which means I can offer cost savings.
Its the continous improvement of many small things which makes the whole. I have already done the calculations. In all honesty the lightweight components (pulleys and timing set) are worth 6-10 whp on a 300 whp car on an acceleration based (600 rpm/s) dynomemeter. Roughly 2 percent, rev matches are faster, and this further accents lightweight clutch and flywheel combinations which cannot be made lighter due to resonance problems. Aluminum is a good absorber of resonance thats why its preferred over steel or carbon fiber for this task. This is another good thing about these parts. They will by some small margin take away resonances in the crankshaft.
I do want my parts to work, and I do want them to be affordable, but I want them to be a cut above to. If you want to throw crap parts on your car that just work then fine, but why throw crap parts on there when you can have mine for a small pittance more. The difference isn't going to be huge, but then there isn't that much difference between a fiesta and a ferrari either now is there? 4 wheels, motor, brakes, gasoline, and oil. The devil is in the details.
I don't know why you continue to post on my threads bashing my products. The worst thing you could do is perturb people away from what I make, and I decide its not worth it to make parts for you guys, or I have insufficent money to make the parts you do want. I've spent a healthy sum to bring this business online. Its not my bread winner, but its a fun hobby business, a hobby business which I will not make a money pit. These are good parts, they have many advantages over what I've seen on the market, weight is just one component of that.
Where did you get 6-10whp at the 300 whp level and 600 rpm/s? I'm SURE that's figuring that the gears are dialed in as to move the power band up. IE-the gains are from adjustment, not from "my gears weigh 1 pound less, that's 6-10 whp". That's my point. I could buy some cheaper gears and get the same gain. The difference in whp measured on a dyno, given the same cam timing between a set of whatever adjustable gears and these will be negligible. So for the HP/$$ minded person (like 99% of this forum) they'll choose whatever is proven to work and is cheap.
The thing is you're targeting the wrong crowd. Don't let me stop you though. I'm just saying that I might actually buy a set if they were cheap and proved to be just as good as any other gear out there. Fact is these gears are not significantly different from any other gear from a performance standpoint, and they don't have a track record. Some will be hesitant to buy them because they're new. Some will hesitate because they only have 3 bolts holding them and other 3 bolt gears have proven to fail. And some will hesitate to buy them because their carbon fiber, which might shatter or something. And some will hesitate to buy them because they're expensive. Or any combination of the above. That's what's going against you.
Only thing going for you is they're pretty and lighter than most gears. That's not enough to sway too many customers your way though.
I honestly wasn't "bashing" your products. Sorry if you took it that way. I'm not saying they're poorly made, or will fail, etc. But I doubt that any meaningful gains will come from weight reduction of these gears. That and I think you're building stuff that's not needed. IE-you could build other things that people WOULD buy. But, if you want to build stuff like this, fine. If it were me I'd build a few other things that the miata community is dying to have, some of which would be easier from a design and manufacturing standpoint.
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01-21-2009, 02:36 PM
#49
They look nice and for the price it’s not too bad. It is worth it because less rotating mass in the engine is less work and less stress on every thing. Witch in the long run I bet this kit will increase the life of the motor because it’s less weight the motor has to turn and the motor is going to feel freer spinning. Think of it as a wheel bearing the less weight you have on it the longer it last the more weight you have on it the shorter it lasts.
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01-21-2009, 02:39 PM
#50
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Drgoodwrench will do the track testing. He is going to beat these parts to death over a weekend of dynotuning and road racing in California. I've also got my QA testing setup here to check for fatigue failure and general part strength. I understand everyones concerns on that. That will be taken care of.
As for charging a honda for 350, you can't even buy the cheapest standalone for that? RRFPR an ebay manifold, and a china charger. You could probably turbo a miata for that much really. If you are wondering if you should turbocharge a car or install these cam gears and lighteweight crank parts, from a power standpoint its an easy win. Thats not what we are talking about here though.
As for charging a honda for 350, you can't even buy the cheapest standalone for that? RRFPR an ebay manifold, and a china charger. You could probably turbo a miata for that much really. If you are wondering if you should turbocharge a car or install these cam gears and lighteweight crank parts, from a power standpoint its an easy win. Thats not what we are talking about here though.
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01-21-2009, 02:50 PM
#52
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Then pat, please present your mathematical proof that you can prove an engine works just like that. To me its a differential system with clear inflection, and critical points which compromises of all three can be made. There is an optimal timing point which represents hotter flame (more energy) in the exhaust manifold and a later closing IVC for more fill at high rpm. There is a setting that maximizes energy from burnt charge and accounts for little reversion which maximizes torque. There is also a setting which maximizes chamber burn, and sets the cylinder up for maximum fill for higher rpm (max hp). There is also every point inbetween these which represents a whole set compromises between them.
Indeed, my point exactly. All those points are at different RPMs. The factory cams are somewhere in the middle, not heavily oriented toward any one specific thing. Of course you can adjust cam timing and move your power band around, etc. Nothing new there. But you can't set these cams to do everything at the same time. That was my point.
As far as intertia, I'd need A LOT of data and a lot of numbers, and even then it would still be an estimate. My only point was that the BENEFITS of weight savings on cam gears is NEGLIGABLE in the grand scheme of things. That's it. If I had to guess, it's less than 1/2 of a % reduction in total inertia. Have you done the math?
My products were made for a build toward ultimate performance. You don't build a GT40 by putting in a high horsepower engine. Thats called a cobra. You don't build one from making a great stock suspension. Thats called a Miata. You don't get one from making the lightest weight vehicle you can manage thats a prius. The merging of these ideas creates an adrenalin pumping experience that cannot be rigidly fixed to a dyno, or to a number. Show me the number the represents the fun a stock miata gives to its user. I missed that somewhere in the sales pitch. I'm dialing in on those same charaterstics that makes these cars fun to drive. More responsive, edgier, more feedback, thats what people appreciate.
If you notice my parts all have a theme. Efficiency, and transition. My ITB manifold when its done will have the throttle plate sticking into the port it will be so close to the head. This is increased transient response. My lightweight cam timing kit and pulley kit reduces both load and inertia on the engine, while increasing horsepower. I would assume if you are buying my lightening kit you are going to purchase an SFI approved lightweight flywheel, lightweight clutch, wheels, and etcetera.
My company doesn't just make what works, its called BOUNDARY engineering for a reason. The motto is "Engineering to the edge." There is not a single company out there that uses the technology I do because the manufacturing process are not well known and there surely isn't that many people who have designed for years from tooling to finished product which means I can offer cost savings.
Its the continous improvement of many small things which makes the whole. I have already done the calculations. In all honesty the lightweight components (pulleys and timing set) are worth 6-10 whp on a 300 whp car on an acceleration based (600 rpm/s) dynomemeter. Roughly 2 percent, rev matches are faster, and this further accents lightweight clutch and flywheel combinations which cannot be made lighter due to resonance problems. Aluminum is a good absorber of resonance thats why its preferred over steel or carbon fiber for this task. This is another good thing about these parts. They will by some small margin take away resonances in the crankshaft.
I do want my parts to work, and I do want them to be affordable, but I want them to be a cut above to. If you want to throw crap parts on your car that just work then fine, but why throw crap parts on there when you can have mine for a small pittance more. The difference isn't going to be huge, but then there isn't that much difference between a fiesta and a ferrari either now is there? 4 wheels, motor, brakes, gasoline, and oil. The devil is in the details.
I don't know why you continue to post on my threads bashing my products. The worst thing you could do is perturb people away from what I make, and I decide its not worth it to make parts for you guys, or I have insufficent money to make the parts you do want. I've spent a healthy sum to bring this business online. Its not my bread winner, but its a fun hobby business, a hobby business which I will not make a money pit. These are good parts, they have many advantages over what I've seen on the market, weight is just one component of that.
Where did you get 6-10whp at the 300 whp level and 600 rpm/s? I'm SURE that's figuring that the gears are dialed in as to move the power band up. IE-the gains are from adjustment, not from "my gears weigh 1 pound less, that's 6-10 whp". That's my point. I could buy some cheaper gears and get the same gain. The difference in whp measured on a dyno, given the same cam timing between a set of whatever adjustable gears and these will be negligible. So for the HP/$$ minded person (like 99% of this forum) they'll choose whatever is proven to work and is cheap.
The thing is you're targeting the wrong crowd. Don't let me stop you though. I'm just saying that I might actually buy a set if they were cheap and proved to be just as good as any other gear out there. Fact is these gears are not significantly different from any other gear from a performance standpoint, and they don't have a track record. Some will be hesitant to buy them because they're new. Some will hesitate because they only have 3 bolts holding them and other 3 bolt gears have proven to fail. And some will hesitate to buy them because their carbon fiber, which might shatter or something. And some will hesitate to buy them because they're expensive. Or any combination of the above. That's what's going against you.
Only thing going for you is they're pretty and lighter than most gears. That's not enough to sway too many customers your way though.
I honestly wasn't "bashing" your products. Sorry if you took it that way. I'm not saying they're poorly made, or will fail, etc. But I doubt that any meaningful gains will come from weight reduction of these gears. That and I think you're building stuff that's not needed. IE-you could build other things that people WOULD buy. But, if you want to build stuff like this, fine. If it were me I'd build a few other things that the miata community is dying to have, some of which would be easier from a design and manufacturing standpoint.
Indeed, my point exactly. All those points are at different RPMs. The factory cams are somewhere in the middle, not heavily oriented toward any one specific thing. Of course you can adjust cam timing and move your power band around, etc. Nothing new there. But you can't set these cams to do everything at the same time. That was my point.
As far as intertia, I'd need A LOT of data and a lot of numbers, and even then it would still be an estimate. My only point was that the BENEFITS of weight savings on cam gears is NEGLIGABLE in the grand scheme of things. That's it. If I had to guess, it's less than 1/2 of a % reduction in total inertia. Have you done the math?
My products were made for a build toward ultimate performance. You don't build a GT40 by putting in a high horsepower engine. Thats called a cobra. You don't build one from making a great stock suspension. Thats called a Miata. You don't get one from making the lightest weight vehicle you can manage thats a prius. The merging of these ideas creates an adrenalin pumping experience that cannot be rigidly fixed to a dyno, or to a number. Show me the number the represents the fun a stock miata gives to its user. I missed that somewhere in the sales pitch. I'm dialing in on those same charaterstics that makes these cars fun to drive. More responsive, edgier, more feedback, thats what people appreciate.
If you notice my parts all have a theme. Efficiency, and transition. My ITB manifold when its done will have the throttle plate sticking into the port it will be so close to the head. This is increased transient response. My lightweight cam timing kit and pulley kit reduces both load and inertia on the engine, while increasing horsepower. I would assume if you are buying my lightening kit you are going to purchase an SFI approved lightweight flywheel, lightweight clutch, wheels, and etcetera.
My company doesn't just make what works, its called BOUNDARY engineering for a reason. The motto is "Engineering to the edge." There is not a single company out there that uses the technology I do because the manufacturing process are not well known and there surely isn't that many people who have designed for years from tooling to finished product which means I can offer cost savings.
Its the continous improvement of many small things which makes the whole. I have already done the calculations. In all honesty the lightweight components (pulleys and timing set) are worth 6-10 whp on a 300 whp car on an acceleration based (600 rpm/s) dynomemeter. Roughly 2 percent, rev matches are faster, and this further accents lightweight clutch and flywheel combinations which cannot be made lighter due to resonance problems. Aluminum is a good absorber of resonance thats why its preferred over steel or carbon fiber for this task. This is another good thing about these parts. They will by some small margin take away resonances in the crankshaft.
I do want my parts to work, and I do want them to be affordable, but I want them to be a cut above to. If you want to throw crap parts on your car that just work then fine, but why throw crap parts on there when you can have mine for a small pittance more. The difference isn't going to be huge, but then there isn't that much difference between a fiesta and a ferrari either now is there? 4 wheels, motor, brakes, gasoline, and oil. The devil is in the details.
I don't know why you continue to post on my threads bashing my products. The worst thing you could do is perturb people away from what I make, and I decide its not worth it to make parts for you guys, or I have insufficent money to make the parts you do want. I've spent a healthy sum to bring this business online. Its not my bread winner, but its a fun hobby business, a hobby business which I will not make a money pit. These are good parts, they have many advantages over what I've seen on the market, weight is just one component of that.
Where did you get 6-10whp at the 300 whp level and 600 rpm/s? I'm SURE that's figuring that the gears are dialed in as to move the power band up. IE-the gains are from adjustment, not from "my gears weigh 1 pound less, that's 6-10 whp". That's my point. I could buy some cheaper gears and get the same gain. The difference in whp measured on a dyno, given the same cam timing between a set of whatever adjustable gears and these will be negligible. So for the HP/$$ minded person (like 99% of this forum) they'll choose whatever is proven to work and is cheap.
The thing is you're targeting the wrong crowd. Don't let me stop you though. I'm just saying that I might actually buy a set if they were cheap and proved to be just as good as any other gear out there. Fact is these gears are not significantly different from any other gear from a performance standpoint, and they don't have a track record. Some will be hesitant to buy them because they're new. Some will hesitate because they only have 3 bolts holding them and other 3 bolt gears have proven to fail. And some will hesitate to buy them because their carbon fiber, which might shatter or something. And some will hesitate to buy them because they're expensive. Or any combination of the above. That's what's going against you.
Only thing going for you is they're pretty and lighter than most gears. That's not enough to sway too many customers your way though.
I honestly wasn't "bashing" your products. Sorry if you took it that way. I'm not saying they're poorly made, or will fail, etc. But I doubt that any meaningful gains will come from weight reduction of these gears. That and I think you're building stuff that's not needed. IE-you could build other things that people WOULD buy. But, if you want to build stuff like this, fine. If it were me I'd build a few other things that the miata community is dying to have, some of which would be easier from a design and manufacturing standpoint.
The bottom line is, I started building what I wanted to put on my car and quite frankly I thought what other companies were offering, was not stacking up.
The math is really quite simple to calculate gains. .5*I*w^2=energy. Change in energy between 2 RPM points is total energy. Total change in energy over time is power. Power was converted to standard units from metric, and its 6-10 whp. The smaller the time between the 2 rpm points the greater the horsepower gain. So higher horsepower cars ofcourse get better numbers. Just PM me. I don't want this thread to get cluttered up. Taking 20 pounds off a flywheel is like 326 pounds off the car. Taking 2 pounds off the crank which is closer to center is probably like taking say 15-20 pounds off the car. Want a carbon fiber hood and trunk. Here it is.
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01-21-2009, 02:56 PM
#53
I'm all for lighter weight - what you're saying is true - since they are not selling for as much over what the other guys charge as it would seem verses the difference you get in the product itself, it's a steal. What people are saying is mostly correct, and I think it's a good place to showcase your products since you will get some useful comments. For instance:
This is basically the issue. They aren't super cheap, and I worry (correctly or no) that they might shatter, age with time/heat, etc. Things like "I'll pick up another factor of two" sounds great, but doesn't always pan out. It's a harsh reality you need to convince people your stuff doesn't suck - look at Honda in the 70's and 80's... They were building stuff better much better than the americans but no one knew to trust it.
Anyway, for me, the main hold up has been the cost. What I, personally, am looking for is an adjustable timing kit which costs half of the other ones which are out there. Probably it would make a nice business model - though decidedly different from your own - to have lines: Stage I, Stage II, etc.
One last thing, since we're mostly turboed around here... It's hard to make an argument for 1% when you can crank the boost that much. :-) An NA car needs all it can get, but everyone here has already doubled their horsepower once for a few grand - spending a significant percentage of that for what is a small gain might not be a bad idea, but it's a hard sell.
A suggestion - as little as they might appreciate what you're really doing here, you'd find customers at ClubRoadster - you could carbon-fiber a coffee grinder and they would buy it. :-)
I'd be all about picking this up, perhaps just one gear since I'm going VVT and only need exhaust timing. The pully set sounds awesome, maybe after my weisco's go in. I've lost two motors due to bent rods, never one due to cam gears. :-P
Anyway, +1 for drool factor, they both look, and are, cool.
Anyway, for me, the main hold up has been the cost. What I, personally, am looking for is an adjustable timing kit which costs half of the other ones which are out there. Probably it would make a nice business model - though decidedly different from your own - to have lines: Stage I, Stage II, etc.
One last thing, since we're mostly turboed around here... It's hard to make an argument for 1% when you can crank the boost that much. :-) An NA car needs all it can get, but everyone here has already doubled their horsepower once for a few grand - spending a significant percentage of that for what is a small gain might not be a bad idea, but it's a hard sell.
A suggestion - as little as they might appreciate what you're really doing here, you'd find customers at ClubRoadster - you could carbon-fiber a coffee grinder and they would buy it. :-)
I'd be all about picking this up, perhaps just one gear since I'm going VVT and only need exhaust timing. The pully set sounds awesome, maybe after my weisco's go in. I've lost two motors due to bent rods, never one due to cam gears. :-P
Anyway, +1 for drool factor, they both look, and are, cool.
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01-21-2009, 03:03 PM
#55
The bottom line is, I started building what I wanted to put on my car and quite frankly I thought what other companies were offering, was not stacking up.
The math is really quite simple to calculate gains. .5*I*w^2=energy. Change in energy between 2 RPM points is total energy. Total change in energy over time is power. Power was converted to standard units from metric, and its 6-10 whp. The smaller the time between the 2 rpm points the greater the horsepower gain. So higher horsepower cars ofcourse get better numbers. Just PM me. I don't want this thread to get cluttered up. Taking 20 pounds off a flywheel is like 326 pounds off the car. Taking 2 pounds off the crank which is closer to center is probably like taking say 15-20 pounds off the car. Want a carbon fiber hood and trunk. Here it is.
The math is really quite simple to calculate gains. .5*I*w^2=energy. Change in energy between 2 RPM points is total energy. Total change in energy over time is power. Power was converted to standard units from metric, and its 6-10 whp. The smaller the time between the 2 rpm points the greater the horsepower gain. So higher horsepower cars ofcourse get better numbers. Just PM me. I don't want this thread to get cluttered up. Taking 20 pounds off a flywheel is like 326 pounds off the car. Taking 2 pounds off the crank which is closer to center is probably like taking say 15-20 pounds off the car. Want a carbon fiber hood and trunk. Here it is.
I dunno what it is yet but something doesn't convince me that you'd see a significant gain from just the cam gears at any point you're talking 2000 rpm/s or less (That's 1.5 seconds from 4k to 7 or maybe a 3rd gear pull?).
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01-21-2009, 03:09 PM
#56
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No no thats the whole kit. I made my points 4000-7000. The cam gears alone are only $200 or so for both, they are light yes, but they also spin at .5 the crank. With the crank kit and the gears it is about half that total gain. With my pulley kit its the full 6-10. The model was based on the ratios to the crank. Alt is roughly 2:1, waterpump is like .5 or so to 1. Thats just inertial gains. We're not talking the underdriving of the waterpump, or adjusting the gears. I won't know that until I get it. I have a feeling underdriving the waterpump will significantly help the cooling problems some people are having at high rpm. They have a tendency to cavitate at higher rpms, and not pump nearly as much.
We also used UV resistant epoxy, (which the worst that happens which epoxy degrades is that it yellows.) These will not yellow, and carbon fiber has no UV degradation like kevlar or zylon say that looses half its stength in as little as a month when exposed to the sunlight. Epoxy is unreactive to nearly anything under the hood. You would have to expose it to something that was ridiculously caustic for it to react. Maybe a big jar of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide or something (MEKP)
We also used UV resistant epoxy, (which the worst that happens which epoxy degrades is that it yellows.) These will not yellow, and carbon fiber has no UV degradation like kevlar or zylon say that looses half its stength in as little as a month when exposed to the sunlight. Epoxy is unreactive to nearly anything under the hood. You would have to expose it to something that was ridiculously caustic for it to react. Maybe a big jar of methyl ethyl ketone peroxide or something (MEKP)
Last edited by TravisR; 01-21-2009 at 03:22 PM.
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01-21-2009, 05:25 PM
#58
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Yea I think generally how they do it, is they put peak efficiency at cruise, and let it go from there. Cruise is usually located somewhere around mean rpm that you are going to run anyways. If you were in an automatic and you were just roving through the gears it would probably shift at 5k or so on medium acceleration. The down side is the ability to flow dramatically drops off at a certain point not far past peak. If you've seen the overwhelming lack of complexity in the Miata water pump, you'd wonder how it pumps at all. The brake rotor venting is at least twice as complex.
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01-21-2009, 07:02 PM
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I don't see the argument of this being a bad deal. 300$ for a set of FM gears. This is 50$ more and you get nicer looking, lighter gears plus the nice looking lightweight crank gear. Oh and they aren't purple. How much is the findinza wheels? About a buck-20 if i remember right. This seems competitive in price + functionality. Very cool.
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