home made turbo kit
06-27-2011, 09:33 PM
#1
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home made turbo kit
So I have been searching and learning about what it takes to put together a successful turbo kit and I was wondering if you could help me out and let me know if I am missing anything.
So far from what I under stand I need, manifold,down pipe,turbo,oil lines,crossover pipe,bov,fpr,and some sort of engine management for fuel and ignition.
As of right now I am only looking to run 5-6psi until I understand tuning(this is my test).
To my understanding I won't need Injectors until 140-150hp mark is reached and from what I have read the fuel pump is good until 250+hp.
Am I on the right track and do I have the right information? Any input would be appreciated!
So far from what I under stand I need, manifold,down pipe,turbo,oil lines,crossover pipe,bov,fpr,and some sort of engine management for fuel and ignition.
As of right now I am only looking to run 5-6psi until I understand tuning(this is my test).
To my understanding I won't need Injectors until 140-150hp mark is reached and from what I have read the fuel pump is good until 250+hp.
Am I on the right track and do I have the right information? Any input would be appreciated!
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06-27-2011, 09:43 PM
#2
So I have been searching and learning about what it takes to put together a successful turbo kit and I was wondering if you could help me out and let me know if I am missing anything.
So far from what I under stand I need, manifold,down pipe,turbo,oil lines,crossover pipe,bov,fpr,and some sort of engine management for fuel and ignition.
As of right now I am only looking to run 5-6psi until I understand tuning(this is my test).
To my understanding I won't need Injectors until 140-150hp mark is reached and from what I have read the fuel pump is good until 250+hp.
Am I on the right track and do I have the right information? Any input would be appreciated!
So far from what I under stand I need, manifold,down pipe,turbo,oil lines,crossover pipe,bov,fpr,and some sort of engine management for fuel and ignition.
As of right now I am only looking to run 5-6psi until I understand tuning(this is my test).
To my understanding I won't need Injectors until 140-150hp mark is reached and from what I have read the fuel pump is good until 250+hp.
Am I on the right track and do I have the right information? Any input would be appreciated!
Reply
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0
06-28-2011, 12:21 AM
#3
So far from what I under stand I need, manifold,down pipe,turbo,oil lines,crossover pipe,bov,fpr,and some sort of engine management for fuel and ignition.
The FPR (assuming adjustable/rising rate) is a band aid, if you were to have "some sort of engine management" you wouldn't need an aftermarket FPR.
As of right now I am only looking to run 5-6psi until I understand tuning(this is my test).
Nothing stopping you from familiarizing yourself with an EMS while n/a.
To my understanding I won't need Injectors until 140-150hp mark is reached depends on your fuel pressure, RRFPR or EMS? and from what I have read the fuel pump is good until 250+hp. Depends, RRFPR or EMS?
Am I on the right track and do I have the right information? Any input would be appreciated!
The FPR (assuming adjustable/rising rate) is a band aid, if you were to have "some sort of engine management" you wouldn't need an aftermarket FPR.
As of right now I am only looking to run 5-6psi until I understand tuning(this is my test).
Nothing stopping you from familiarizing yourself with an EMS while n/a.
To my understanding I won't need Injectors until 140-150hp mark is reached depends on your fuel pressure, RRFPR or EMS? and from what I have read the fuel pump is good until 250+hp. Depends, RRFPR or EMS?
Am I on the right track and do I have the right information? Any input would be appreciated!
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0
06-28-2011, 12:32 AM
#4
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Location: Newcastle, Australia
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If you realy want to put together your own kit. Stop now, buy a megasquirt. only when youve got that totally figured out go and buy all the hardware included in the begi kit. I didnt say buy a begi kit I said buy the hardware, as in use their parts list as yours...
1 manifold.. 1 downpipe.. 6 feet of vacuum hose... etc.
Dann
1 manifold.. 1 downpipe.. 6 feet of vacuum hose... etc.
Dann
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06-28-2011, 01:34 AM
#5
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Hey, I'd say your well on the right track to getting things going. One thing that people always say which is very true is things always cost more then you think... To take your budget, figure out what it will get you and plan on saving another half of the budget for odds and ends or whatever the case may be.
The pre built turbo kits are the best bet and if you can afford one I would highly recommend that. I've built a few home made jobbies and they are always hell in a handbasket... Things always take longer then you think and are somehow more difficult despite how simple they are.
But with that said if you are stuck on the DIY home made kit... you have your list going pretty good.
1st for me would be the Manifold... however you must know what type of turbo you are going to get so you buy a manifold with the correct flange.
2nd is usually the turbo itself... lots of good used turbo's around for cheap.
3rd is definitely the downpipe. You can make your own but are likely better off picking up a premade used one that will fit your particular setup.
4th is probably fueling. If you only plan on running 5-6psi you can use a rising rate fuel pressure regulator but they are band aids as people say and are terrible compared to a well running stand alone engine management system such as megasquirt. Another bandaid option which I haven't tried myself but always seemed enticing is a EIC or extra injector controller... The drawback is they are somewhat expensive for what they do compared to a new engine management system.
5th is basically the rest... random piping and an intercooler either from ebay or the junkyard... Not too hard to get. A blow off valve... I'm a fan of the old volvo ones myself.
You'll also need a boost gauge and a wide band oxygen sensor... If your budget is too tight for a wide band oxygen sensor then you need to wait in my opinion because otherwise you run a fairly high risk of blowing up your engine because you can't an accurate air fuel mixture under boost.
But ya, give it a go... Lots of fun to be had.
A trick to running low boost on an internal wastegated turbo... likely what you would get is to cut the wastegate rod in half and thread both sides a couple inches in both directions. Then get an spring and a big washer and an elongated jam nut and a couple of regular jam nuts. Create pressure on the rod to open easier by putting the spring pressing on the back of the wastegate housing with a jam nut and the big washer... this will let the wastegate open easier thus lowering the boost. Its a great relatively unknown trick to lower the boost to a "learning"/ "safe" level...
Good luck!
The pre built turbo kits are the best bet and if you can afford one I would highly recommend that. I've built a few home made jobbies and they are always hell in a handbasket... Things always take longer then you think and are somehow more difficult despite how simple they are.
But with that said if you are stuck on the DIY home made kit... you have your list going pretty good.
1st for me would be the Manifold... however you must know what type of turbo you are going to get so you buy a manifold with the correct flange.
2nd is usually the turbo itself... lots of good used turbo's around for cheap.
3rd is definitely the downpipe. You can make your own but are likely better off picking up a premade used one that will fit your particular setup.
4th is probably fueling. If you only plan on running 5-6psi you can use a rising rate fuel pressure regulator but they are band aids as people say and are terrible compared to a well running stand alone engine management system such as megasquirt. Another bandaid option which I haven't tried myself but always seemed enticing is a EIC or extra injector controller... The drawback is they are somewhat expensive for what they do compared to a new engine management system.
5th is basically the rest... random piping and an intercooler either from ebay or the junkyard... Not too hard to get. A blow off valve... I'm a fan of the old volvo ones myself.
You'll also need a boost gauge and a wide band oxygen sensor... If your budget is too tight for a wide band oxygen sensor then you need to wait in my opinion because otherwise you run a fairly high risk of blowing up your engine because you can't an accurate air fuel mixture under boost.
But ya, give it a go... Lots of fun to be had.
A trick to running low boost on an internal wastegated turbo... likely what you would get is to cut the wastegate rod in half and thread both sides a couple inches in both directions. Then get an spring and a big washer and an elongated jam nut and a couple of regular jam nuts. Create pressure on the rod to open easier by putting the spring pressing on the back of the wastegate housing with a jam nut and the big washer... this will let the wastegate open easier thus lowering the boost. Its a great relatively unknown trick to lower the boost to a "learning"/ "safe" level...
Good luck!
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06-28-2011, 11:21 AM
#7
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I'll agree with installing and learning to manipulate a MegaSquirt or other standalone for awhile before complicating things with the addition of a turbo. You can learn to make it idle and run well in relative safety and tune all of the unboosted cells in preparation for the eventual turbo being added. It is the best route to take. It helps the learning curve not to be a steep mountain.
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06-28-2011, 03:05 PM
#8
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my car is a 1993 1.6l 5speed all stock down to the oem air filter and box.
and maybe i will get the magasquirt and afr guage to get used to tuning and learn how to do it.i am not new to cars i am just new to turbo systems and tuning.
everyone says that a RRFPR is a "band-aide",what exactly do you mean?is i just a cheap way to run a turbo system safely?
sorry for all the questions,im just trying to learn as much as i can so i can stay on the right track,thank you everyone for all your input.
and sandman im not to sure what you mean with the internal wastegate change,is there a write up with pictures perhaps that i could look at?
and maybe i will get the magasquirt and afr guage to get used to tuning and learn how to do it.i am not new to cars i am just new to turbo systems and tuning.
everyone says that a RRFPR is a "band-aide",what exactly do you mean?is i just a cheap way to run a turbo system safely?
sorry for all the questions,im just trying to learn as much as i can so i can stay on the right track,thank you everyone for all your input.
and sandman im not to sure what you mean with the internal wastegate change,is there a write up with pictures perhaps that i could look at?
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06-28-2011, 03:29 PM
#9
Bandaids are a term we use for a device that effects fuel or spark that is not tied in with the ECU.
The typical list of bandadids is:
AFPR/FMU/RRFPR: used to mechanically raise fuel pressure in the rail.
BIPES: used on 90-97 cars to electrically retard timing based on RPM and IAT.
O2clamp: used to electrically trick the ECU into seeing a "not rich" signal from the factor O2 sensor so it doesn't pull fuel during boost onset.
Also typically used with a bandaid setup is a:
Fuel Pump: typically a Walbro or Pierburg... necessary for raising fuel pressure above the 80psi level of the stock pump.
Smallish OEM injectors: either from another Mazda or Toyota, but larger than what come with the Miata.
RX7 AFM: for 90-93cars.
A full setup of well-tuned bandaids can get you in the 12-14psi range with small T25 and be good'ish enough for around 200whp... maybe a bit more on a 1.8 with big exhaust. The problem is then tune will never be ideal, and while it will be safe enough, there will always be minor driveability problems.
The other issue is that you will pay more for all this stuff than you will for a Megasquirt. Even a plain MS PnP with a set of used RX7 460cc injectors and zero other items can get you a near-perfect 200whp tune on a small T25. Throw a wideband 02 sensor and some 550cc injectors and you can run the limits of just any turbo the stock engine can handle.
Get yourself (either buy from a vendor, or have somebody on the board make you one) a Megasquirt. Get some 500+cc injectors... you can either buy from a vendor, or buy through some used ones through the classifieds. If you buy used, have them cleaned and flowed. The RX7 550cc's are extremely popular for DIY or guys on a budget. The Innovate Motorsports LC1 wideband is dead simple and works perfectly with Megasquirt. Even buying the MS and LC1 brand new, you can still do those plus used injectors for under $1k... or way less if you get a used MS or have somebody build you one... or you can build one yourself.
Get those three items installed and learn to tune while naturally aspirated... all the time reading on this website and deciding which route you want to take for your build, keep an eye on the classifieds, etc...
The typical list of bandadids is:
AFPR/FMU/RRFPR: used to mechanically raise fuel pressure in the rail.
BIPES: used on 90-97 cars to electrically retard timing based on RPM and IAT.
O2clamp: used to electrically trick the ECU into seeing a "not rich" signal from the factor O2 sensor so it doesn't pull fuel during boost onset.
Also typically used with a bandaid setup is a:
Fuel Pump: typically a Walbro or Pierburg... necessary for raising fuel pressure above the 80psi level of the stock pump.
Smallish OEM injectors: either from another Mazda or Toyota, but larger than what come with the Miata.
RX7 AFM: for 90-93cars.
A full setup of well-tuned bandaids can get you in the 12-14psi range with small T25 and be good'ish enough for around 200whp... maybe a bit more on a 1.8 with big exhaust. The problem is then tune will never be ideal, and while it will be safe enough, there will always be minor driveability problems.
The other issue is that you will pay more for all this stuff than you will for a Megasquirt. Even a plain MS PnP with a set of used RX7 460cc injectors and zero other items can get you a near-perfect 200whp tune on a small T25. Throw a wideband 02 sensor and some 550cc injectors and you can run the limits of just any turbo the stock engine can handle.
Get yourself (either buy from a vendor, or have somebody on the board make you one) a Megasquirt. Get some 500+cc injectors... you can either buy from a vendor, or buy through some used ones through the classifieds. If you buy used, have them cleaned and flowed. The RX7 550cc's are extremely popular for DIY or guys on a budget. The Innovate Motorsports LC1 wideband is dead simple and works perfectly with Megasquirt. Even buying the MS and LC1 brand new, you can still do those plus used injectors for under $1k... or way less if you get a used MS or have somebody build you one... or you can build one yourself.
Get those three items installed and learn to tune while naturally aspirated... all the time reading on this website and deciding which route you want to take for your build, keep an eye on the classifieds, etc...
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06-28-2011, 03:35 PM
#10
First thing in order is fuel (tuning) management.
Tons and tons of projects over the web have gone south because people get crazy buying all the heardware, but once they got it running its a time bomb.
Learn the deal of MS, because if you cannot even play with the tuning N/A, then its going to be a nightmare boosted.
Tons and tons of projects over the web have gone south because people get crazy buying all the heardware, but once they got it running its a time bomb.
Learn the deal of MS, because if you cannot even play with the tuning N/A, then its going to be a nightmare boosted.
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06-28-2011, 03:58 PM
#11
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Alright I'm understanding now.I read the writeup on how to build your megasquirt and it didnt necessarily look hard.but I haven't done it,so from anyone with experience,is it hard?I can do wiring and tedious work,but what is the difficulty level on building your own?i just don't want to get too far over my abilities.
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06-28-2011, 04:45 PM
#13
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I'm thinking I will be able to do it as long as there is instructions included.I am good at soldering and have fixed a few wiring harnesses in motor swapped cars so I think I would be alright.but just out of curiosity how much would someone on the forum charge to build one?
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06-28-2011, 11:56 PM
#15
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Hey, this is the best link I've found... I cut open an old wastegate I had lying around and used the spring from that... it needs to be a fairly strong spring and an this old wastegate one was perfect.
http://www.denverspeed.com/wastegates.html
The question of how to lower your boost is asked so often on the web but there are not enough write ups like this one. I had to search for quite a while to find it. Perhaps Brain or someone wants to put that link or the details in a sticky?
Here is a pic of mine
Shot at 2011-06-28
Shot at 2011-06-28
http://www.denverspeed.com/wastegates.html
The question of how to lower your boost is asked so often on the web but there are not enough write ups like this one. I had to search for quite a while to find it. Perhaps Brain or someone wants to put that link or the details in a sticky?
Here is a pic of mine
Shot at 2011-06-28
Shot at 2011-06-28
Last edited by sandman; 06-29-2011 at 12:52 AM.
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06-29-2011, 05:00 AM
#16
Buy a Megasquirt and a Stimulator (which will help you check if your wiring is legit at the end), you can always send it off to one of the guys on this forum if you get stuck, and hey, at the end you can tell all your mates how cool you are that you've built your own computer for your car.
I pissed around for 9 months before I bought a Megasquirt and I have always thought it was the best $ I ever spent on my car!
There is tonnes of info in the stickies (important articles) that will help you with all your questions here too, My advice is start reading hard out and write some notes to help :-)
I pissed around for 9 months before I bought a Megasquirt and I have always thought it was the best $ I ever spent on my car!
There is tonnes of info in the stickies (important articles) that will help you with all your questions here too, My advice is start reading hard out and write some notes to help :-)
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