james399

iTrader: (12)

Ok, Ive read the faq like three times... and used the search function and still have some questions...
yes i am a noob, but now I need some input...
I'm also trying to do this all for as close to 2k, if possible

Im looking to be just under 300 whp with long term reliability...so please free to let me know if I should add anything or remove anything... or if i am doing anything *** backwards....

I have a 93L 1.6

fm 1.8 conversion kit
fresh engine mounts

engine: i know some people at some salvage shops, and can get a decent deal... i hope...
94 bottom end (what if anything should i do to it, to make it reliable?)
99 head (what if anything should i do to it, to make it reliable?)
with this particular set up, i can get more hp at lower boost?? 9:1 instead of 9.5:1 ??
do i need to upgrade the rods and pistons?? i know for sure i have to upgrade the rings right??

i do plan on replacing all gaskets, water pump and belts, when building this engine..

ebay clutch

1.6 stock rear end for now?

bipes acu, or should i go for a stand alone unit... the megasquirt pnp?? what are the pros and cons??

garret 2871r turbo (should i go bigger or smaller or will this work)

38mm external waste gate

walbro 190 hp fuel pump,

begi aux fpr

fuel rails do i need to upgrade?

550 injectors from 89-91 rx-7 turbo

exhaust manifold (begi)

custom 3inch down pipe and exhaust

ebay intercooler, and custom plumbing

boost controller? should i just make a manual one or should i go for the electronic ones, which is better, what can i live with?

what is O2 clamp? do i need it, is it necessary?

random gauges, sensors,

should i go bov or pypass? the whole thing about vauum etc is throwing me off... so if i get a piggy back ecu (bipes acu)... then i should go pypass right?? that way i won't be creating a vacuum leak, and should only get bov if i'm going to run a stand alone ecu... can someone clarify this??

ok, that about covers it i think... am i missing anything?? or is there anything i can get rid of, to hit my numbers...

to get all that i feel like i'd actually be closer to 3-4k region...

please help.

thanks

skidude

iTrader: (3)

I won't pretend I have turboed anything yet, but having read a lot here and being in the middle of mine, I can tell you a few things.

1. Stock 1.6 rear end WILL blow up. Badly.
2. You probably can't make that much power with out some kind of engine control. Read up on Megasquirt.
3. If you use megasquirt, you won't need an afpr, or ignition retarder or anything. And the bigger injectors will work well. You should also be OK with the stock fuel pump, but that one I'm not 100% sure on.

Get a wideband O2. Totally worth it. I tried to tune a little with the narrowband and it was only 1.3 steps up from useless. the wideband is 100x better.

If you just turbo the 1.6, you can absolutely do it for under 2k, though I don't know how close to 300whp you'll be.
I'm shooting for low 200s and I'm just about exactly at 2k. I didn't do as much price shopping as I could have though.

AlexO35

iTrader: (7)

Buy the Megasquirt, install it, learn it, love it. There's more control power there than most of us use. Install the MS and tune NA, then boost it. Like Skidude said, it'll cover all the engine management and you won't need all the bandaids you listed. (Bipes, AFPR) Plus you'll have EBC.

You need to do a bit more reasearch on BOVs. You refer to the BOV and bypass as if it were different. You need a BOV, but you have two choices. Either VTA (vent to atmosphere) or recirculate. Search for BOV VTA and BOV recirculate and you'll find you answers....

james399

iTrader: (12)

are you running a 1.6 or 1.8?
and if running the 1.6, did you up grade to the diff to 1.8?

james399

iTrader: (12)

so much to learn.... lol... thanks for the tip.... me =

AlexO35

iTrader: (7)

Not a problem. Do you have a copy of "Maximum Boost" yet?
--Alex

james399

iTrader: (12)

yeah, i have that, the manual, and keith tanner power mods book...

word...

skidude

iTrader: (3)

I have a '94 (so 1.8), with the torsen that came in it.

james399

iTrader: (12)

and the bigger brakes, and rigid body.... lucky bastard.... i kind of jumped into it and picked up my 93... without doing too much research... *sigh* couldn't pass it up though...

500 for complete car
1000 for body work... (car was crashed in the front...)

AlexO35

iTrader: (7)

I did the same with my '97. At least you don't have OBDII to deal with....
--Alex

skidude

iTrader: (3)

I sort of fell into the '94. When I went looking I wasn't looking for any year in particular. I wanted the 1.8 but if a 1.6 had turned up at the right price I would be in it now instead of the one I have.

How is the '94 more rigid than the earlier ones? From what I've heard, that cockpit brace doesn't actually do anything except help with side impact.

Toddcod

iTrader: (8)

If you have 2000 dollars you can get 230-250 rwhp out of a 1.6L. And have a fun car.

But to get 300hp you'll need fuel management.
Your stock ecu shouldn't manage the injectors you'll need. Even with a fuel pressure riser.
Therefore you need management.
MS is the cheapest, simple enough I could figure it out. (still at it)

Ms is very capable. will control Knocksence, boost, WI etc etc.
Bov is needed if you are running over 4-5 psi. It lenghtens the life of your turbo.

Personnally I only want a 1.6L. Parts are cheap and abundant. The brake thing is as easy as brackets and rotors.

I only want 250hp. After that the tranny and stock pistons are starting to stress. I guess you can say your at gods mercy. Some people push it.

But I want a daily driver.

But if Hp is in your top priority, the 1.8L may be better for you.
It all winds down to budget.
If you only have $2000 for your turbo build, your motor runs good. And you won't be seeing any big bucks coming around the corner.
I would turbo the 1.6L. You can get a used kit, and a megasquirt and drive until you have money for internals. Then Push crazy boost and get your 300 anyway.
Or swap to a 1.8L when the motor goes.
But remember 1.6L motors are cheap and abundant. You can just keep chunking one in if you play to hard and blow it.

But anyway. I don't know about 300hp for $2000.00. Unless you have a crazy hook-up for prices and can build everything on the motor yourself.

If you just get a turbo & IC, clutch, injectors, & ms with a good tune You can get good hp on a stock motor.


That sounds like a great deal you got on the car.

james399

iTrader: (12)

Thats true, but that being, said, i think the 94's is the optimal year... bigger brakes... 1.8 stiffer, more door support... and obd1

alas....

james399

iTrader: (12)

Yeah, it was a great deal... so far, i'm doing little things here and there, to make it nicer inside and out... picked up a red hard top, and a red hood(needed to be replace, had a white one, but figured a red one would match a little more lol...)

so if i'm going for daily driver, with reliability... 230-250 hp range?

gt 2560 turbo
bov
tial 38mm waste gate
ms pnp
440 fuel injectors
wide o2 band
custom down pipe
3 inch exhaust
clutch
on stock internals will get me in the 230-250 range?

will i be able to keep my 1.6 rear end? will the visous diff hold up in that power range?

edit: ****... that is just so tempting to just run it until it blows, and then pop in a new motor like a tic tac...

samnavy

iTrader: (7)

James... go get a beer and then come back and read my reply... I'll wait.





















Got a beer? Good... here we go.
You need to go for a ride in at least one FI Miata before you settle on a power goal. Throwing around 300whp as an initial build goal is a very NOOB thing to do. You're talking about tripling stock horsepower in a 2100lb car. You're in the same power to weight ratio class as a 450whp STi or EVO or S2000. There is also an enormous difference between making a reliable 250whp Miata and a 300whp Miata.

I'll break it down for you.
Any bone-stock 1.8 is capable of a reliable 300whp. The '99 head makes it easier to get there on less boost. The '01+ VVT head allows you to make a lot more midrange torque. The weak point of the BP motors are the rods/pistons/rings/valvetrain in that order. Anybody wanting to build a bulletproof 300whp BP motor needs a decent set of forged rods at a minimum... see CAT/949/Belfab (all same rods). MANY people rely on a set of ceramic coated stock pistons for some knock-safety to save money. Forged pistons are not a necessity at 300whp, but safety says ceramic coating is good money spent. Stock rings are typically very stout but there are many ring upgrades available and they're not much more money. The stock valvetrain is good for slighly more than 7200rpm. If you're not going to rev higher than that, leave them alone. Ceramic coating the exhaust valves again offers you a much higher margin of safety during a knock event. The stock head gasket is fine. ARP head-studs are cheap and a great safety item, but not necessary.
In any case, I've done the homework on the very motor we're talking about here... forged rods, stock coated pistons, upgraded rings, rebuilt stock valvetrain w/a 3-angle valvejob, typical seals/gasket rebuild kit, hot-tank, honing, labor, etc... $2500.

Turbo:
A GT2560 is will get any 1.8 to 300whp. It's easier on a '99 head. A GT2871 is usually where guys running stroker motors start at. There's no reason to go that big. It'll take forever to spool and is better suited to 350+whp motors. It's also about $1200 new.

Wastegate:
Internal gates make things easier and cheaper. The GT25 series turbos with an enlarged wastegate port can be tuned to provide great boost control with the EBC function enabled on most aftermarket ECU's or an external EBC. MBC's are even easier, but don't allow you to adjust boost on the fly. Stick with an internal gate... much more availablility of manifolds/DP's and far less complicated. You can also wire your EBC signal through a dash switch... so you can run wastegate only most of the time and just throw the switch if you need a little extra... reduces wear and tear and is a neat talking point.

ECU:
YOU need a full-capability piggyback like Xede, or a standalone unit like Megasquirt/Hydra/Link, etc... You cannot use bandaids at those power levels. Forget the Bipes and AFPR. You also cannot idle anything bigger than 330cc injectors on the stock ECU even if it could make that kind of power. The Bipes unit will retard timing from your base timing (probably about 14* with 93octane) based on RPM and IAT up to 16*. Most guys running around 10-12psi intercooled on bandaids find that 14* base with the Bipes pulling 7-8* starting at 3k rpm is about right. It is a piggyback TIMING ONLY device that requires you to hack (solder/crimp/splice) your factory ECU harness to install it. The amount of fidelity it provides is really only enough to run very low 200whp... above that, and your going to knock somewhere unless you're compensating by running really rich... either way, 200-210whp seems to be the magic upper number for Bipes users.

AFPR:
Raises fuel pressure in the fuel rail when in boost to provide additional fuel using the stock ECU injector pulse length. Does nothing for fuel off-boost... which means in vaccum or at idle, you're still getting the same injector pulse length (on larger injectors) so you run rich... which is why the stock ECU can't idle bigger than 330's (your run pig rich and stall). The amount of fuel pressure you can run is based on the max capability of the stock fuel pump (Miata stock 80psi). Most guys running bandaids run a Walbro 190lphHP which will give you 130+psi in the rail. The stock rubber fuel lines are suspect at that pressure. The stock fuel injectors are fine at those pressures. To get 300whp on 330's, you need about 200psi of fuel pressure... which is why that amount of power on the stock ECU using bandaids is impossible.

02Clamp:
The stock ECU is dumb and is always trying to fight you because it virtually always wants to see 14.7:1 AFR (air-fuel ratio) or thereabouts. Using a bandaid setup (or a limited function piggyback), the transition into boost causes the car to run rich (you should always be rich when in boost) when fuel pressure rises rapidly from the extra pressure from the AFPR (causing the stock 02 sensor to tell the ECU to remove fuel to try and stay ar 14.7:1) which causes an immediate lean condition... which blows up motors. An 02 clamp tells the stock ECU that there's no rich condition the instant boost hits... so it doesn't fight the AFPR and pull fuel by shortening injector pulse length when the AFPR is trying to give more fuel by increasing fuel pressure. Running rich does 2 things... atomizing a liquid (gasoline) into the airstream as it enters the combustion chamber cools the air dramatically. Running rich=running cool, which reduces your knock threshold. Because of this coolness and fuel rich enviroment, you can usually run a little more timing. More timing=more power.
BOV:

VTA (vent to atmosphere) is very difficult for stock ECU's to compensate for. That air you're blowing out into the engine bay has already been calculated and compensated for (fuel added for) and will typically cause a momentary rich spike during shifting... which kills performance bad. The 1.6 flapper-door style MAF's are almost impossible to get them to run right if VTA'ing. You can do it, but rough running, bucking under light loads, etc... is something you have to decide is worth it for the cool sound. 94+ cars using heated element (forget technical name) MAF's respond better to VTA, but there is still the potential for tuning and idle problems (especially if your BOV leaks, lots of them do no matter what they advertise). Aftermarket ECU's can fully compensate for VTA as the way they measure air and meter fuel is completely different from OEM ECU's.

A stock ECU on a non-turbo car CANNOT SEE BOOST and will not add fuel for it... which is why we need another computer or bandaids to get our fuel.

Dif:
The 1.6 6" ring gear is manageable in the low 200whp range... good gear oil and not abusing it will get it to last. No drag/drift/burnouts and you better be gentle on the shifter and don't go bigger than 195 tires.
Above 220-230whp, it's unsafe to use the 6" dif. You're just a little power-on oversteer from grenading the thing and putting yourself and passenger in the wall (or tree, or embankment). Upgrade to the 7" Torsen or die. I am currently on the accepted power limit of the 6" dif... and it scares me everytime I get a little sideways. For 300whp and the 5-spd tranny, you need a 4.1 final drive or lower (preferably, the ideal gear is the 3.636)... DO NOT BUY A 4.3 TORSEN FOR ANYTHING ABOVE 250whp... it's a waste of tires because 1st gear is now useless except as a smoke machine.

I could go on and on, but in the end, you need to know the truth. I'm gonna break it down for you, starting with a stock 1.6, how to get 300whp in a reliable package with the supporting mods to keep things safe and get the power to the ground. I'll try and stay as cheap as possible.

1.8 upgrade with mild internals/swap kit: $2500-$3000k.
Megasquirt PnP: $700
LC1: $180
EBC: $50
RX7 550's cleaned/flowed: $150
Torsen Upgrade: $700
3.636 R&P: $500
949Racing 15x8" 6UL wheels w/225/45/15 Hankook Ventus RS2's: $1000
BEGi Cast Manifold + SS-DG DP: $900
GT2560R: from ATP $935
CXRacing IC+Couplers+Clamps+BungWelding+Misc Hose+AirFilter: $400
Forge/Greddy/HKS VTA BOV: $200 (knockoff $50)
Oil/Water/Hose/VaccumLine/Fittings/Adapters/Misc: $300
Enthuza 3" cat-back: $900
Mishimoto/Godspeed Radiator: $300
Pick your coolant reroute: $150
Spec/ACT/Exedy/etc clutch: $500
Braided Brake Lines/Pads: $250
Boost/EGT/OilTemp: $300

If you are going to do anything with it other than mild daily driving while and the occasional dip to 300whp on the freeway or when the clutch is fully out: 6spd $800

VoodooKnob/Heat Wrap/Radiator Flush/Synthetic Oil/TrannyOil/ZipTies/DremelBits/a bunch of misc crap you can't even imagine at this point: +10% of the above total.

You can buy things used and do the work yourself... but creating a car that will reliably handle 300whp, not overheat, and actually get traction is an expensive proposition.

Toddcod

iTrader: (8)

I wouldn't go with 440's you will run out of head room if you up grade. Mine just came with the used kit. They will be topped out at 250.
The GT2560 should have a internal wastegate already on it. So you don't have to buy a external one.

Begi said the stock motor is good for a safe and reliable 250hp, or 12 psi. Everything gets weak after that.
The rear end is the weak point on a 1.6L. I'm not changing mine till I run accross a good deal or it breaks. But I am paying a couch off for the lovely lady.LOL
That said, Im not going to dump the clutch and slam shift it. But I will drive the **** out of it.

I just read your other post, if your motor is bad and you want to upgrade. I would probably do it now.
The manifolds are differant between the 1.6 and 1.8.

But if 220-250hp makes you happy. I would find a good running cheap spare 1.6.

That is just me. I want things to bolt up and be done.

And you definately want a WBO2. Your MS will run off it too.

I haven't had my car dyno'ed yet. I still need to swap in my clutch.

Then I'll then take it to Begi. They seem to be reasonable, and you know their good.

james399

iTrader: (12)

Hey Sam... That was an awesome response, it answered a lot of my question....

ok, I actually read your build thread a couple of times too.... lots of good information...

Ok so lets say I denoob myself, and go for something reasonable... i.e. 200-250 whp range....

can i do it reliably on a 1.6?

can i do it with the following?

gt2560 turbo (internal wastegate)
intercooler
bov
ms pnp
440 fuel injectors (for now, i can always ditch em if i upgrade)
wide o2 band
custom down pipe
3 inch exhaust
clutch
torsen rear? can i get the non torsen 1.8 off of a 94' plus?
on stock internals will get me in the 230-250 range?

and wheels and tires are on the list... i decided to go for the speedmax.. yes they weight a lot... but look so fregin cool.... not to mention i have fender flares, so i need crazy offset....which the 6uol don't have...

thanks for all the input... i'm getting me a good edumacation...

so by going what you and todd are doing and saying, i should just pick up a good condition spare 1.6, power train... and have that ready, and rebuid em while i'm driving on one?? that way ill have a spare motor handy??

thanks....

Toddcod

iTrader: (8)

DANG SAM!
Great post!

That needs to be a NOOB sticky! I would of loved to not have figured that out over 6 months.

Toddcod

iTrader: (8)

Check out Brainack's (moderator) engine mods. He has one of the highest horspower 1.6L's on the forum. That is who I mocked my mods off of.

MS will idle 550's just the same as 440's. And the old RX7' 550's will swap in plug and play.
Most people here use 460+ on MS.
That way if your boost spikes and you run alittle over 250, you don't go lean.

But I'm going run with free. LOL

Check out Diyatune's MS miata 1.6l with 250hp on 460 injectors,

There are some people here running 200 hp on 10psi.

As far as reliability goes. Corkey Bell said you will never shorten the life of a miata motor as long as you run 12psi or less, and don't over wind it (7200 rpms).

They will be dependable up to 250hp.
13psi + you compromise's some strength. At like 14-psi they last a couple of years. (Or so I've been told)

If you have a good motor, I wouldn't worry about a spare. But if the motor is weak, I would freshen it up.


These motors are basically the 323 turbo motor. They even have the drain port on the passenger side for a turbo.

We would all rather have a 1.8L motor. But I didn't want to cough up the cash.

There are alot of people running 12-14psi on stock internals. They are a tough motor.

My car has 147,000 miles and I'm going to run 12psi.

Toddcod

iTrader: (8)

I'm not for sure what all is involved or the cost to swap in a good running stock stock 1.8L.
Someone else may be able to help.
Good LUCK!