Help! Building a Forged Engine (experts needed)
03-31-2009, 03:09 PM
#1
Help! Building a Forged Engine (experts needed)
Looked around quite a bit on the forum but wanted to ask myself directly on advice for parts and price for building a 1.6L engine. Have what I think is a pretty sweet deal in the bag as far as the labor concidering who will be doing it but I need to source the right parts. Obviously with times being tuff I don't want to spend alot but also don't want to cut corners either.
The Plan
Would like to fully build the bottom end; forged pistions, forged rods, rings, bearings, oil pump, headstuds, and headgasket. Will have the head completely redone to slightly better than spec miata specs with new OEM everything. Already have an ACT streetlight flywheel and steet clutch disk and pressure plate. Currently running a greddy kit with a 2.5" downpipe and have a MS to add to the setup afterwards. Don't plan on a turbo upgrade at least anytime in the next few years. So that leaves me what 15-17psi maxed out on the tiny greddy turbo making 250ish. Obviously doesn't NEED a built engine but would insure great longevity. Here's where I need your help!
Best Rods & Pistons
- What compression ratio should I get?
- What's the best bang for the buck right now and a source to get them?
- Do they usally come with the correct rings, etc. and do the rods have bearings?
ARP, ARP, ARP
- Anyone know the part number on 1.6L ARP headstuds?
- What other ARP hardware should I get to build the engine with?
Headgaskets
- Whats the best?
- Whats the best bang for the buck?
Coolant Reroute
- Current engine is completely fine with cooling; have a 2 core koyo. Should I invest in the reroute with my setup?
Missing Anything
- Anything else I maybe looking over to make the setup correct?
Thanks,
Dan
The Plan
Would like to fully build the bottom end; forged pistions, forged rods, rings, bearings, oil pump, headstuds, and headgasket. Will have the head completely redone to slightly better than spec miata specs with new OEM everything. Already have an ACT streetlight flywheel and steet clutch disk and pressure plate. Currently running a greddy kit with a 2.5" downpipe and have a MS to add to the setup afterwards. Don't plan on a turbo upgrade at least anytime in the next few years. So that leaves me what 15-17psi maxed out on the tiny greddy turbo making 250ish. Obviously doesn't NEED a built engine but would insure great longevity. Here's where I need your help!
Best Rods & Pistons
- What compression ratio should I get?
- What's the best bang for the buck right now and a source to get them?
- Do they usally come with the correct rings, etc. and do the rods have bearings?
ARP, ARP, ARP
- Anyone know the part number on 1.6L ARP headstuds?
- What other ARP hardware should I get to build the engine with?
Headgaskets
- Whats the best?
- Whats the best bang for the buck?
Coolant Reroute
- Current engine is completely fine with cooling; have a 2 core koyo. Should I invest in the reroute with my setup?
Missing Anything
- Anything else I maybe looking over to make the setup correct?
Thanks,
Dan
Reply
0
0
03-31-2009, 03:25 PM
#2
I'll just list my **** and where I got it.
Rods & Pistons
Eagle Rods from Lightning motorsports 8.8 CR
Weisco pistons from Race Engineering
Pistons come with rings and wrist pins.
As for bearings, your builder needs to measure before ordering bearings.
Any competent builder shouldn't have a problem with getting them.
ARP, ARP, ARP
Got my head studs and main studs from Race Engineering
Headgaskets
Cometic from Race Engineering
Coolant Reroute
The motor is out so no better time to do it. I went the DIY way.
Plenty of threads on that.
I would also strongly suggest a new oil pump, water pump and timing belt kit.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
Rods & Pistons
Eagle Rods from Lightning motorsports 8.8 CR
Weisco pistons from Race Engineering
Pistons come with rings and wrist pins.
As for bearings, your builder needs to measure before ordering bearings.
Any competent builder shouldn't have a problem with getting them.
ARP, ARP, ARP
Got my head studs and main studs from Race Engineering
Headgaskets
Cometic from Race Engineering
Coolant Reroute
The motor is out so no better time to do it. I went the DIY way.
Plenty of threads on that.
I would also strongly suggest a new oil pump, water pump and timing belt kit.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
Last edited by levnubhin; 03-31-2009 at 03:37 PM.
Reply
0
0
03-31-2009, 03:27 PM
#3
What's best I don't know, but I chose Supertech pistons in the 8.5CR based on months of research/reading/bugging people etc. Most pistons come with proper rings, if not all.
I got ETD rods because they were cheap (320 for me
), but concensus is that ETD and/or Belfab/supertech are both plenty good. None come with bearings.
I will use only a OEM Mazda headgasket, my prefernece.
ARP, don't know part numbers, but I got my head and main studs from some guy on ebay for a pretty good deal, that is all you need from ARP, most aftermarket rods come with ARP hardware.
Bearings...your on your own, but I chose Calico H-hardness coated bearings, they are local and very reputable...these bearings go in some serious motors and I am not skimping on this build.
Coolant, I think you are ok for now, but if oyu want to do it, this is the best time. I am making my own before the motor goes back in.
Always build with headroom in mind, eventually you WILL upgrade.
I got ETD rods because they were cheap (320 for me
), but concensus is that ETD and/or Belfab/supertech are both plenty good. None come with bearings.I will use only a OEM Mazda headgasket, my prefernece.
ARP, don't know part numbers, but I got my head and main studs from some guy on ebay for a pretty good deal, that is all you need from ARP, most aftermarket rods come with ARP hardware.
Bearings...your on your own, but I chose Calico H-hardness coated bearings, they are local and very reputable...these bearings go in some serious motors and I am not skimping on this build.
Coolant, I think you are ok for now, but if oyu want to do it, this is the best time. I am making my own before the motor goes back in.
Always build with headroom in mind, eventually you WILL upgrade.
Reply
0
0
03-31-2009, 03:39 PM
#4
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Diego
Posts: 65
Total Cats: 0
Longevity has nothing to do with the best parts. :( The tuning i.e spark and fuel management). Why you ask? Detonation on a built motor vs. a stock motor = scrap aluminum in no time flat. Broken ring lands = dead motor. Super Lean/Bad tune= torched Exhaust Valves and/or seats, and so on.
I feel most name brand after market pistons are good. ROSS, JE, Wisco to name a few, but i guess it is what brand u trust or like. The Rods i would use Crower, but i dont know if it is the best bang for the buck. You may like Eagle because there half the price and the quality is just as good.
Head Studs YES, since you are already there. They dont cost much and overall a good investment. Not sure what the part # is though.
Cosmetic makes a good gasket, but it almost the same as the stock (MLS) gasket.
Coolent reroute is alot easier with the motor out of the car, and always a good idea.
Wouldnt it be more cost effective to do a stock 1.8 then all these part? I would think so, cause even at discount prices it may still all total up to 1500 in parts alone.
Oh yeah almost forgot. Bigger injectors, AFPR 1 to 1 ratio, and Bigger fuel pump! @80%+ injector duty cycle they start doing weird things and most of the time it's not good. 3' down pipe and exhaust if all possiable.
I feel most name brand after market pistons are good. ROSS, JE, Wisco to name a few, but i guess it is what brand u trust or like. The Rods i would use Crower, but i dont know if it is the best bang for the buck. You may like Eagle because there half the price and the quality is just as good.
Head Studs YES, since you are already there. They dont cost much and overall a good investment. Not sure what the part # is though.
Cosmetic makes a good gasket, but it almost the same as the stock (MLS) gasket.
Coolent reroute is alot easier with the motor out of the car, and always a good idea.
Wouldnt it be more cost effective to do a stock 1.8 then all these part? I would think so, cause even at discount prices it may still all total up to 1500 in parts alone.
Oh yeah almost forgot. Bigger injectors, AFPR 1 to 1 ratio, and Bigger fuel pump! @80%+ injector duty cycle they start doing weird things and most of the time it's not good. 3' down pipe and exhaust if all possiable.
Reply
0
0
03-31-2009, 04:32 PM
#5
thanks for the replies....I guess I good gates timing belt would be a good addition to the build. I have some 1.8's I'm running with the Vortech FMU which the A/F's look fine around 7psi or so. In my wonderful box of upgrade parts I have the MS w/plug-n-play harness, rx7 460's, gm AIT, and a well's VTPS retro fitted in the stock TPS housing. So when I get to the point to turn it up all these parts should make it fine.
Reply
0
0
03-31-2009, 05:02 PM
#6
Elite Member
iTrader: (22)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sunny Spanish speaking Non US Caribbean
Posts: 3,224
Total Cats: 3
Dan, I went with the Supertech and Belfab rods combo offered by BELFAB. My pistons are 9:1 compression. I went with a pretty small overbore because I don't plan to track the car too much and I don't want to consume oil.
About the coolant reroute: do it. I hate the Miata OEM water temp gauge. I even started a thread asking about how to linnearize it. That gauge doesn't show the car's real temp and by the time the needle moves, your engine is hotter than you think.
BTW, I should finish the simple coolant reroute suggested by Rob tomorrow. I'll have answers in a couple of days but it looks to me like it's going to work. The only issue is the routing of the hoses (it sure is complicated with the engine in the car). The cost was $16 for the thermostat outlet he pointed to and water hoses. FWIW, I see you own a 1.6L. If that's the case, you're going to need a different housing in the back of the head. I used the one that comes in my 1.8L with no issues. I'm also installing an electrical Autometer water temp gauge. I asked my mechanic to take some pics. I'll post some tomorrow in Rob's thread.
About the coolant reroute: do it. I hate the Miata OEM water temp gauge. I even started a thread asking about how to linnearize it. That gauge doesn't show the car's real temp and by the time the needle moves, your engine is hotter than you think.
BTW, I should finish the simple coolant reroute suggested by Rob tomorrow. I'll have answers in a couple of days but it looks to me like it's going to work. The only issue is the routing of the hoses (it sure is complicated with the engine in the car). The cost was $16 for the thermostat outlet he pointed to and water hoses. FWIW, I see you own a 1.6L. If that's the case, you're going to need a different housing in the back of the head. I used the one that comes in my 1.8L with no issues. I'm also installing an electrical Autometer water temp gauge. I asked my mechanic to take some pics. I'll post some tomorrow in Rob's thread.
Reply
0
0
03-31-2009, 05:06 PM
#7
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,085
Total Cats: 375
Best Rods & Pistons
- 8.5:1 (look at my dyno thread for truth and retribution: 15psi at 3800rpm)
- belfab cut an awesome deal on supertech slugs and CAT rods
- my builder gets lots of respect for his track record and commented that my rings looked "good"
ARP, ARP, ARP
- I did arp mains because it was only $100 more
Headgaskets
- a stock gasket has been fine on mine so far
Coolant Reroute
- required if you want to get on the track...reasonable for the street
Missing Anything
- gt2560
- I went with a loose bore because although its slightly less efficient, there is less likelihood of extreme cylinder temps causing drama
- build with headroom on mechanical capacity (overbuild the motor), pick the exact turbo you want...I'd love to have a slightly lower efficiency range / g-spot because my car is a handful at 15psi / max efficiency
Thanks,
you are welcome
- 8.5:1 (look at my dyno thread for truth and retribution: 15psi at 3800rpm)
- belfab cut an awesome deal on supertech slugs and CAT rods
- my builder gets lots of respect for his track record and commented that my rings looked "good"
ARP, ARP, ARP
- I did arp mains because it was only $100 more
Headgaskets
- a stock gasket has been fine on mine so far
Coolant Reroute
- required if you want to get on the track...reasonable for the street
Missing Anything
- gt2560
- I went with a loose bore because although its slightly less efficient, there is less likelihood of extreme cylinder temps causing drama
- build with headroom on mechanical capacity (overbuild the motor), pick the exact turbo you want...I'd love to have a slightly lower efficiency range / g-spot because my car is a handful at 15psi / max efficiency
Thanks,
you are welcome
Reply
0
0
03-31-2009, 09:27 PM
#12
I've seen alot of cases were ppl go too crazy and distroy the fun of a car just cause they had to go big on everything. Sometimes good is ok; that and I know the guy whos doing the head has years and years of experiance doing this very thing and they're **** when done...
Reply
0
0
03-31-2009, 09:29 PM
#13
Dan, I went with the Supertech and Belfab rods combo offered by BELFAB. My pistons are 9:1 compression. I went with a pretty small overbore because I don't plan to track the car too much and I don't want to consume oil.
About the coolant reroute: do it. I hate the Miata OEM water temp gauge. I even started a thread asking about how to linnearize it. That gauge doesn't show the car's real temp and by the time the needle moves, your engine is hotter than you think.
BTW, I should finish the simple coolant reroute suggested by Rob tomorrow. I'll have answers in a couple of days but it looks to me like it's going to work. The only issue is the routing of the hoses (it sure is complicated with the engine in the car). The cost was $16 for the thermostat outlet he pointed to and water hoses. FWIW, I see you own a 1.6L. If that's the case, you're going to need a different housing in the back of the head. I used the one that comes in my 1.8L with no issues. I'm also installing an electrical Autometer water temp gauge. I asked my mechanic to take some pics. I'll post some tomorrow in Rob's thread.
About the coolant reroute: do it. I hate the Miata OEM water temp gauge. I even started a thread asking about how to linnearize it. That gauge doesn't show the car's real temp and by the time the needle moves, your engine is hotter than you think.
BTW, I should finish the simple coolant reroute suggested by Rob tomorrow. I'll have answers in a couple of days but it looks to me like it's going to work. The only issue is the routing of the hoses (it sure is complicated with the engine in the car). The cost was $16 for the thermostat outlet he pointed to and water hoses. FWIW, I see you own a 1.6L. If that's the case, you're going to need a different housing in the back of the head. I used the one that comes in my 1.8L with no issues. I'm also installing an electrical Autometer water temp gauge. I asked my mechanic to take some pics. I'll post some tomorrow in Rob's thread.
Reply
0
0
03-31-2009, 09:35 PM
#14
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,659
Total Cats: 134
I've seen alot of cases were ppl go too crazy and distroy the fun of a car just cause they had to go big on everything. Sometimes good is ok; that and I know the guy whos doing the head has years and years of experiance doing this very thing and they're **** when done...
N/A != Turbo
Reply
0
0
03-31-2009, 09:41 PM
#15
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central, TX / Bay area, CA
Posts: 1,260
Total Cats: 5
I got the belfab kit with the +1mm valves seems to be working great so far, I had the machine shop balence everything before I put it together and it is smooth even with solid motor mounts.
Reply
0
0
03-31-2009, 10:13 PM
#18
Elite Member
iTrader: (22)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sunny Spanish speaking Non US Caribbean
Posts: 3,224
Total Cats: 3
I paid $789.00 too. It's still the best deal I could find.
Reply
0
0
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
elesjuan
Build Threads
9
11-14-2018 12:18 PM
SuperSneakySecretSquirrel
Meet and Greet
5
09-06-2015 08:30 PM
