Your turbo coolant lines are all f*cked up?
#81
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I know I will get flamed for this, but OP is right and everyone who is confused is either not reading his posts or failed highschool science.
Having said that if nothing is coking, I wouldnt stress. BUT if you have boiling coolant you might consider doign it properly as OP is suggesting.
2c.
Dann
Having said that if nothing is coking, I wouldnt stress. BUT if you have boiling coolant you might consider doign it properly as OP is suggesting.
2c.
Dann
I would still like to point out that Garrett still only saw a 25°F (~14°C) improvement in temps in a controlled environment in the best conditions possible at peak temp. And they didn't really state what temps that were measuring (water, surface, turbine, chra), when they were taking the temps (running, in boost, after shutdown), and the time delta (how much faster did one drop temps over the other).
I would also like to point out, that our fucked up method has yet to result in turbos failing from backcooling and that it's wasted effort in order to look like a huge *****.
#82
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I never said it didn't happen. I just said it didn't matter. I have no coking problems and do not plan on having this particular turbo over 100k miles.
Your purposes may vary of you are an actual auto manufacturer.
Your purposes may vary of you are an actual auto manufacturer.
#83
this post was not flame worthy.
I would still like to point out that Garrett still only saw a 25°F (~14°C) improvement in temps in a controlled environment in the best conditions possible at peak temp. And they didn't really state what temps that were measuring (water, surface, turbine, chra), when they were taking the temps (running, in boost, after shutdown), and the time delta (how much faster did one drop temps over the other).
I would also like to point out, that our fucked up method has yet to result in turbos failing from backcooling and that it's wasted effort in order to look like a huge *****.
I would still like to point out that Garrett still only saw a 25°F (~14°C) improvement in temps in a controlled environment in the best conditions possible at peak temp. And they didn't really state what temps that were measuring (water, surface, turbine, chra), when they were taking the temps (running, in boost, after shutdown), and the time delta (how much faster did one drop temps over the other).
I would also like to point out, that our fucked up method has yet to result in turbos failing from backcooling and that it's wasted effort in order to look like a huge *****.
Garrett® laboratory testing has shown that peak temperatures in the center housing can be reduced by as much as 90°F (50°C) when the center housing is rotated to allow the hotter outlet water to escape from the higher port.
And if it's possible to route the turbo coolant lines on my miata "the right way" I will do it.
The whole idea was exploring this and how it can be made possible, no one has made any suggestions so far how to accomplish this. Yet all the energy has gone to: "our method is good enough no need to develop it" bullshit.
#84
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peak temperatures of what, when, in the center housing? water? surface? oil? turbine shaft? bearings? during operation? full boost? after shutdown?
The chart also suggests that the 50°C reduction was at a rotation of 30° on the axis. But yet, they suggest that you rotate it only 20°. Which is a reduction of only 20°C of peak "temps".
You wanna know why they don't have you rotate the turbo to the more ideal backcooling rotation of the chra? because at every degree rotation you're reducing the actual cooling efficiency of the cooling/lubricating system during operation.
Notice that Volvo turbo you posted is pretty much at 0°.
I'm actually a bit shocked garrett would suggest even a 20° rotation to help improve backcooling after shutoff without discussing the adverse effects it will have on your oiling system and without study or note of those temps/issues.
You came to our site and claimed our way is fucked, yet none of us have coking issues with or without water cooling turbos but I have seen plenty of members having oiling issues when the turbo was rotated more than 10° from center. This whole discussion is stupid. Had you come in here with a more, "hey what do you ******** think of this white paper" approach instead of a "hey you ******* are wrong and im smarter than you cause i read someone else's work" approach, maybe we'd be more willing to give a **** about what you're trying to convey.
So yeah, by all means, you can go ahead and use the lower water port on the block as an inlet and then the upper hose or something as an outlet, with a 20° rotation on the turbo as opposed to the water pump port as an inlet (coolest water source) and the upper hose or something as an outlet (hottest source) with or without a 20° rotation on the turbo...but who's to say the cool water from the lower hose source doesn't flow up through the turbo, once the motor is off, up through the turbo and out the upper hose due to heat siphoning? Honestly I've put way too much thought into something I don't care about.
The chart also suggests that the 50°C reduction was at a rotation of 30° on the axis. But yet, they suggest that you rotate it only 20°. Which is a reduction of only 20°C of peak "temps".
You wanna know why they don't have you rotate the turbo to the more ideal backcooling rotation of the chra? because at every degree rotation you're reducing the actual cooling efficiency of the cooling/lubricating system during operation.
Notice that Volvo turbo you posted is pretty much at 0°.
I'm actually a bit shocked garrett would suggest even a 20° rotation to help improve backcooling after shutoff without discussing the adverse effects it will have on your oiling system and without study or note of those temps/issues.
You came to our site and claimed our way is fucked, yet none of us have coking issues with or without water cooling turbos but I have seen plenty of members having oiling issues when the turbo was rotated more than 10° from center. This whole discussion is stupid. Had you come in here with a more, "hey what do you ******** think of this white paper" approach instead of a "hey you ******* are wrong and im smarter than you cause i read someone else's work" approach, maybe we'd be more willing to give a **** about what you're trying to convey.
So yeah, by all means, you can go ahead and use the lower water port on the block as an inlet and then the upper hose or something as an outlet, with a 20° rotation on the turbo as opposed to the water pump port as an inlet (coolest water source) and the upper hose or something as an outlet (hottest source) with or without a 20° rotation on the turbo...but who's to say the cool water from the lower hose source doesn't flow up through the turbo, once the motor is off, up through the turbo and out the upper hose due to heat siphoning? Honestly I've put way too much thought into something I don't care about.
Last edited by Braineack; 01-16-2014 at 10:02 AM.
#91
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we plumb it to the water pump inlet, the lowest pressure zone, and typically plumb the other end to the upper hose, or water neck--the highest pressure zone.
as shown in post #1 here: the fucked up way.
while yes, the water is going to flow from upper hose to lower hose during operation (the most ideal high pressure to low pressure), when it's off, isn't this then already the ideal setup for heat siphoning? the cool water post radiator will absorb the heat from the CHRA and flow up into the upper hose?
#92
but that's the typical way we plumb it.
we plumb it to the water pump inlet, the lowest pressure zone, and typically plumb the other end to the upper hose, or water neck--the highest pressure zone.
as shown in post #1 here: the fucked up way.
while yes, the water is going to flow from upper hose to lower hose during operation (the most ideal high pressure to low pressure), when it's off, isn't this then already the ideal setup for heat siphoning? the cool water post radiator will absorb the heat from the CHRA and flow up into the upper hose?
we plumb it to the water pump inlet, the lowest pressure zone, and typically plumb the other end to the upper hose, or water neck--the highest pressure zone.
as shown in post #1 here: the fucked up way.
while yes, the water is going to flow from upper hose to lower hose during operation (the most ideal high pressure to low pressure), when it's off, isn't this then already the ideal setup for heat siphoning? the cool water post radiator will absorb the heat from the CHRA and flow up into the upper hose?
And the return to the mixing manifold. Yes it's the optimal place to return when talking about low pressure. But when talking about thermal siphoning it's too low in the system and it is too cold.
I also like to point that the up/downs on our hoses are one of the major reasons thermal siphoning can't work. Most of setups have both hoses pointing down at the turbo. In worst case they both rise up to clear the power steering (FM/Begi) before going back down to mixing manifold.
And changing the flow direction of the coolant after shutdown? That just...
Most of the OEM applications either return to heater return (if the pipe is high enough), near the top radiator hose, the thermostat neck/cover or the throttle body.
#93
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Let's say you have the usual coolant reroute and you take the water still from the same point. In this case the hose coming from oil cooler and TB. This point is one of the furthest points you can take the water from the pump. It gets warmed by the block and also by the oil cooler. Then you take this hot water to your turbo?
And the return to the mixing manifold. Yes it's the optimal place to return when talking about low pressure. But when talking about thermal siphoning it's too low in the system and it is too cold.
I also like to point that the up/downs on our hoses are one of the major reasons thermal siphoning can't work. Most of setups have both hoses pointing down at the turbo. In worst case they both rise up to clear the power steering (FM/Begi) before going back down to mixing manifold.
And changing the flow direction of the coolant after shutdown? That just...
Most of the OEM applications either return to heater return (if the pipe is high enough), near the top radiator hose, the thermostat neck/cover or the throttle body.
anyway, i've already been saying for years the water port above the oil port on the block is probably a better location for water source for the turbo. but not much has changed after the motor is shut off between before the WP and after. They are both about equally low on the motor, and they are both the coldest source for the "inlet" and the outlet will still be the same. The only change being the flow during operation, which will be more ideal for sure without a doubt.
Last edited by Braineack; 01-16-2014 at 11:01 AM.
#95
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I do have to concede that Garrett did put in one quick line about adverse effects on oil drainage. I missed it the first time i skimmed through.
ill even concede that the way we do is wrong, not fucked, only because we should be using the lower coolant port (if you even have it on your block) as opposed to the water pump inlet. As this will allow the coolest water to flow through the turbo instead of the warmest.
but i still don't see why the fact that there is a water pump between these two setups, that when off, siphoning will only occur in one.
ill even concede that the way we do is wrong, not fucked, only because we should be using the lower coolant port (if you even have it on your block) as opposed to the water pump inlet. As this will allow the coolest water to flow through the turbo instead of the warmest.
but i still don't see why the fact that there is a water pump between these two setups, that when off, siphoning will only occur in one.
Last edited by Braineack; 01-16-2014 at 11:14 AM.
#97
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but that's the typical way we plumb it.
we plumb it to the water pump inlet, the lowest pressure zone, and typically plumb the other end to the upper hose, or water neck--the highest pressure zone.
as shown in post #1 here: the fucked up way.
while yes, the water is going to flow from upper hose to lower hose during operation (the most ideal high pressure to low pressure), when it's off, isn't this then already the ideal setup for heat siphoning? the cool water post radiator will absorb the heat from the CHRA and flow up into the upper hose?
we plumb it to the water pump inlet, the lowest pressure zone, and typically plumb the other end to the upper hose, or water neck--the highest pressure zone.
as shown in post #1 here: the fucked up way.
while yes, the water is going to flow from upper hose to lower hose during operation (the most ideal high pressure to low pressure), when it's off, isn't this then already the ideal setup for heat siphoning? the cool water post radiator will absorb the heat from the CHRA and flow up into the upper hose?
#98
Take a close look at the pictures.
1. How does the water rise to the bottom of the turbo? All I can see is a feed line that starts at the mixing manifold, goes straight up, then down, then up to the turbo
2. How does the water flow freely upwards from the turbo? All I can see is a return line that points straight down from the turbo, then goes back up to the water neck?
Constant uphill and great success?
I believe that a solution where coolant flows to the right direction in every situation is still the right one.
You all know which is the right way of doing this, thinking about reversing coolant flow etc. is just band-aid.
as shown in post #1 here: the fucked up way.
while yes, the water is going to flow from upper hose to lower hose during operation (the most ideal high pressure to low pressure), when it's off, isn't this then already the ideal setup for heat siphoning? the cool water post radiator will absorb the heat from the CHRA and flow up into the upper hose?
while yes, the water is going to flow from upper hose to lower hose during operation (the most ideal high pressure to low pressure), when it's off, isn't this then already the ideal setup for heat siphoning? the cool water post radiator will absorb the heat from the CHRA and flow up into the upper hose?
2. How does the water flow freely upwards from the turbo? All I can see is a return line that points straight down from the turbo, then goes back up to the water neck?
Constant uphill and great success?
I believe that a solution where coolant flows to the right direction in every situation is still the right one.
You all know which is the right way of doing this, thinking about reversing coolant flow etc. is just band-aid.
#99
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i forgot water can't flow if it's not in a straight line hose from low to high. Probably why my garden hose never works unless i unravel it and stand on the roof.
this is also probably why normal siphoning never works either. I was never EVER able to siphon water out of my fish tank to clean it, or gas from a gas tank, because i never had a perfectly straight hose.
i also dont understand phsyics and thermal dynamics.
this is also probably why normal siphoning never works either. I was never EVER able to siphon water out of my fish tank to clean it, or gas from a gas tank, because i never had a perfectly straight hose.
i also dont understand phsyics and thermal dynamics.