Emissions
01-12-2014, 12:45 PM
#21
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There's some work along these lines starting to happen with the NC, but for the NB I'm still not aware of anything at all which is end-user-tuneable.
Which sucks.
Yes, an ECU like a Megasquirt could still run in speed-density mode when installed in parallel with the stock ECU. The MAF sensor would run only to the stock ECU, while the MAP sensor would run only to the aftermarket unit. Most other sensors (temp, crank, cam, etc), would be split between the two, with the MS configured to NOT supply a pullup voltage, but rather accommodate whatever pullup the stock ECU is providing.
This is by no means an easy install, and you have to really get the tune right to keep the stock ECU from throwing fuel trim codes, but it can be done. There was a time, in fact, when this was the standard method of doing MS installation on the NB; before things like alternator control and VVT were well-understood. I would imagine that the documentation is all still lying around here somewhere...
Which sucks.
Yes, an ECU like a Megasquirt could still run in speed-density mode when installed in parallel with the stock ECU. The MAF sensor would run only to the stock ECU, while the MAP sensor would run only to the aftermarket unit. Most other sensors (temp, crank, cam, etc), would be split between the two, with the MS configured to NOT supply a pullup voltage, but rather accommodate whatever pullup the stock ECU is providing.
This is by no means an easy install, and you have to really get the tune right to keep the stock ECU from throwing fuel trim codes, but it can be done. There was a time, in fact, when this was the standard method of doing MS installation on the NB; before things like alternator control and VVT were well-understood. I would imagine that the documentation is all still lying around here somewhere...
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01-12-2014, 01:54 PM
#22
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Unless you tell people where you live no one knows what your emissions requirements are. Go to google and type in your state's name and "emissions testing" and then figure out wtf you have to do. After you do that search this forum for emissions testing and read all the info that's already here.
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01-12-2014, 03:12 PM
#23
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Read post number 6, WASHINGTON state in the United States of America. I already know what is required in my state(be able to pass readiness monitors) now I just need to find a way to either tune the stock ecu or do the parallel method or just go back to stock which i'm trying to avoid.
Sucks they dont just use a sniffer. You could definitely get an MS to pass the sniffer for sure..
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01-12-2014, 03:21 PM
#24
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One would think that you could just dig around and find all this info but so far as my searching has taken me I am having a hard time. Obviously I'm not alone. Much of the information here regarding emissions testing and detailed MS installs on OBD2 cars is several years old and far out of date.
If these questions aren't asked every couple years we'll never make any progress. They don't need to be asked once per minute but I think a regular checkup is a good idea. People come and go and we're all always learning.
OP, please make sure to share which route you decide to take and document it if you're willing. I've got the same question and am looking for the best answer as well. Based on what I've found, best bet is swap back to stock. A parallel install sounds like a nightmare to me. I figure going back to stock gives me a chance to clean things up and check connections.... Or screw things up and break connections :/
Edit to add: I'm also your neighbor to the south and I believe our state emissions requirements are comparable. Would love to check out your project in more detail. Do you have a build thread somewhere?
If these questions aren't asked every couple years we'll never make any progress. They don't need to be asked once per minute but I think a regular checkup is a good idea. People come and go and we're all always learning.
OP, please make sure to share which route you decide to take and document it if you're willing. I've got the same question and am looking for the best answer as well. Based on what I've found, best bet is swap back to stock. A parallel install sounds like a nightmare to me. I figure going back to stock gives me a chance to clean things up and check connections.... Or screw things up and break connections :/
Edit to add: I'm also your neighbor to the south and I believe our state emissions requirements are comparable. Would love to check out your project in more detail. Do you have a build thread somewhere?
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01-12-2014, 03:22 PM
#25
What I was getting at though, is that if this guy took 5 minutes to search he'd have an idea about MS parrallel installs, adaptronic parallel installs, heck even all the piggybacks like the Xede, the FIC, and some of the really old ones like the Emanage, etc.
THEN when he would have an idea of what's available, he could ask much more specific and helpful (to him) questions about how each is setup, how capable each is with how much power, which could handle bigger injectors, etc etc etc. Basically more to the point questions that let us know he's really putting effort into this rather than sitting back and acting like a little baby.
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01-12-2014, 09:47 PM
#27
There's some work along these lines starting to happen with the NC, but for the NB I'm still not aware of anything at all which is end-user-tuneable.
Which sucks.
Yes, an ECU like a Megasquirt could still run in speed-density mode when installed in parallel with the stock ECU. The MAF sensor would run only to the stock ECU, while the MAP sensor would run only to the aftermarket unit. Most other sensors (temp, crank, cam, etc), would be split between the two, with the MS configured to NOT supply a pullup voltage, but rather accommodate whatever pullup the stock ECU is providing.
This is by no means an easy install, and you have to really get the tune right to keep the stock ECU from throwing fuel trim codes, but it can be done. There was a time, in fact, when this was the standard method of doing MS installation on the NB; before things like alternator control and VVT were well-understood. I would imagine that the documentation is all still lying around here somewhere...
Which sucks.
Yes, an ECU like a Megasquirt could still run in speed-density mode when installed in parallel with the stock ECU. The MAF sensor would run only to the stock ECU, while the MAP sensor would run only to the aftermarket unit. Most other sensors (temp, crank, cam, etc), would be split between the two, with the MS configured to NOT supply a pullup voltage, but rather accommodate whatever pullup the stock ECU is providing.
This is by no means an easy install, and you have to really get the tune right to keep the stock ECU from throwing fuel trim codes, but it can be done. There was a time, in fact, when this was the standard method of doing MS installation on the NB; before things like alternator control and VVT were well-understood. I would imagine that the documentation is all still lying around here somewhere...
Or someone who was much better at me with IDA and DIY flashing could just find the variables which store ready/not ready, and the CEL codes and just make a dummy computer with a flash that just says yes to the reader, even though the stock ecu is just hooked up to power, ground, and the obdii port.
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01-12-2014, 09:50 PM
#28
This thread gave me a thought. Someone like joe, could design a small board which you plug directly into the stock ecu, and feed power, ground and obdII wiring, which completely simulates a boring stock engine to the ecu such that it passes all the readiness tests and throws no codes.
Or someone who was much better at me with IDA and DIY flashing could just find the variables which store ready/not ready, and the CEL codes and just make a dummy computer with a flash that just says yes to the reader, even though the stock ecu is just hooked up to power, ground, and the obdii port.
Or someone who was much better at me with IDA and DIY flashing could just find the variables which store ready/not ready, and the CEL codes and just make a dummy computer with a flash that just says yes to the reader, even though the stock ecu is just hooked up to power, ground, and the obdii port.
There's just this tiny little problem with it being extremely illegal.
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01-13-2014, 12:09 AM
#30
In this thread I detailed my MS parallel install and how I passed emissions. I threw 3 codes with the parallel install, so you will have to address those codes:
https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...8/#post1074776
https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...8/#post1074776
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01-13-2014, 12:11 AM
#31
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One would think that you could just dig around and find all this info but so far as my searching has taken me I am having a hard time. Obviously I'm not alone. Much of the information here regarding emissions testing and detailed MS installs on OBD2 cars is several years old and far out of date.
If these questions aren't asked every couple years we'll never make any progress. They don't need to be asked once per minute but I think a regular checkup is a good idea. People come and go and we're all always learning.
OP, please make sure to share which route you decide to take and document it if you're willing. I've got the same question and am looking for the best answer as well. Based on what I've found, best bet is swap back to stock. A parallel install sounds like a nightmare to me. I figure going back to stock gives me a chance to clean things up and check connections.... Or screw things up and break connections :/
Edit to add: I'm also your neighbor to the south and I believe our state emissions requirements are comparable. Would love to check out your project in more detail. Do you have a build thread somewhere?
If these questions aren't asked every couple years we'll never make any progress. They don't need to be asked once per minute but I think a regular checkup is a good idea. People come and go and we're all always learning.
OP, please make sure to share which route you decide to take and document it if you're willing. I've got the same question and am looking for the best answer as well. Based on what I've found, best bet is swap back to stock. A parallel install sounds like a nightmare to me. I figure going back to stock gives me a chance to clean things up and check connections.... Or screw things up and break connections :/
Edit to add: I'm also your neighbor to the south and I believe our state emissions requirements are comparable. Would love to check out your project in more detail. Do you have a build thread somewhere?
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01-13-2014, 12:22 AM
#32
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As of now I'm thinking to keep EGR and stuff so when emissions time comes I swap ECU and injectors, throw a stock intake on there and wire the waste gate open and hope it passes. However I haven't been able to confirm if that would work or not.
I'm also considering trying to register the vehicle at my in-laws' cabin address in Idaho where they have no inspections whatsoever
I'm also considering trying to register the vehicle at my in-laws' cabin address in Idaho where they have no inspections whatsoever
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01-13-2014, 12:27 AM
#33
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By all means Joe, spoon feed this idiot and stroke his shaft. Must be that time of month when you're sympathetic and helpful again. I never know, our periods just never sync
What I was getting at though, is that if this guy took 5 minutes to search he'd have an idea about MS parrallel installs, adaptronic parallel installs, heck even all the piggybacks like the Xede, the FIC, and some of the really old ones like the Emanage, etc.
THEN when he would have an idea of what's available, he could ask much more specific and helpful (to him) questions about how each is setup, how capable each is with how much power, which could handle bigger injectors, etc etc etc. Basically more to the point questions that let us know he's really putting effort into this rather than sitting back and acting like a little baby.
What I was getting at though, is that if this guy took 5 minutes to search he'd have an idea about MS parrallel installs, adaptronic parallel installs, heck even all the piggybacks like the Xede, the FIC, and some of the really old ones like the Emanage, etc.
THEN when he would have an idea of what's available, he could ask much more specific and helpful (to him) questions about how each is setup, how capable each is with how much power, which could handle bigger injectors, etc etc etc. Basically more to the point questions that let us know he's really putting effort into this rather than sitting back and acting like a little baby.
Power goal is 280whp for occasional use, and around 220-240whp for daily driving. So an engine management system that would allow for 4 larger injectors is a must, being able to run a 3 port boost control solenoid would be a plus too. I'm not familiar with many piggybacks except for helping a guy tune a tc with an FIC and it doesn't meet my requirements.
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01-13-2014, 12:33 AM
#34
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As of now I'm thinking to keep EGR and stuff so when emissions time comes I swap ECU and injectors, throw a stock intake on there and wire the waste gate open and hope it passes. However I haven't been able to confirm if that would work or not.
I'm also considering trying to register the vehicle at my in-laws' cabin address in Idaho where they have no inspections whatsoever
I'm also considering trying to register the vehicle at my in-laws' cabin address in Idaho where they have no inspections whatsoever
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01-13-2014, 12:34 AM
#35
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In this thread I detailed my MS parallel install and how I passed emissions. I threw 3 codes with the parallel install, so you will have to address those codes:
https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...8/#post1074776
https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...8/#post1074776
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01-13-2014, 03:39 PM
#38
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so looks like one limitation with xede I would be restricted to how much air I can flow before tripping a cel for maf out of range, would that happen with the parallel method too since you have to retain the maf? and why adaptronic over MS?
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01-13-2014, 03:50 PM
#39
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In actual practice, this has shown not to be a chronic problem for most reasonably-sized streetable turbo systems.
One CEL I have heard of a lot with Xede is P0300 (Random Misfire), a side-effect of the fact that most folks seem to use the Xede to bump up the ignition advance in the cruise cells. Easily avoided.
If you were referring to 18PSIs, post, understand that people sometimes use sarcasm in ways that are obvious to "insiders" (eg: those who have been around for a while and know where the skeletons are buried.)
In this case, there has simply been a long-running debate which borders on the religious between proponents of the MS (who think the Adaptronic ECUs are too damned expensive and their users a bunch of mindless sheep who don't understand anything about how engine management and tuning works beyond writing large checks to pay for it) and proponents of the Adaptronic (who believe that the MS is a poorly-documented clusterfuck of a science-fair project, and that its users are a bunch of cheap-*** nerds who are willing to tolerate lots of bullshit and agony in order to save a buck.)
Both sides are correct.
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01-13-2014, 04:16 PM
#40
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Problem is that if you live in say, Fulton County, you have to get your tag in Fulton County and therfore must also have passed emmissions.
Your options:
Piggy back
Flashed ECU (BeGI does this)
Swap everything back (and then drive 150 miles b/c you cant just plug in the ecu and go get tested... it WILL fail).
I plan on swapping (old injectors, tie off wastegate (don't want boost) plug in oem ecu, install orig intake and drive for a day). Or maybe I'll try to register the car using my folk's lake house address. Or maybe I'll buy a 1/4 acre of property in south Ga...
Your options:
Piggy back
Flashed ECU (BeGI does this)
Swap everything back (and then drive 150 miles b/c you cant just plug in the ecu and go get tested... it WILL fail).
I plan on swapping (old injectors, tie off wastegate (don't want boost) plug in oem ecu, install orig intake and drive for a day). Or maybe I'll try to register the car using my folk's lake house address. Or maybe I'll buy a 1/4 acre of property in south Ga...
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