NB Cam Angle Sensor Heatsoak/Failure
01-21-2016, 10:04 PM
#121
Just cast plastic. This stuff should work. TC-1650 A/B - Casting Epoxy - Epoxy Make a urethane or silicone mold over a 3d printed part and then drop this **** into the mold. Price really aint bad.
I think I could print adapters and include sensors for about the price of a beck arnley stock cam sensor and make ok money.
I think I could print adapters and include sensors for about the price of a beck arnley stock cam sensor and make ok money.
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01-22-2016, 02:04 PM
#122
So why go with that sensor over OEM/Evo? It's bigger - not terrible but perhaps tight on VVT motors.
If it's just to save the $10 over buying the factory part, ok - but if you're only competing on price you gotta know that from the beginning. :-) They'd have to work better. I can see it being cleaner than the OEM Mazda one, but the EVO one seems (electrically) fantastic - though it doesn't like the VVT's doublet.
Does this one?
If it's just to save the $10 over buying the factory part, ok - but if you're only competing on price you gotta know that from the beginning. :-) They'd have to work better. I can see it being cleaner than the OEM Mazda one, but the EVO one seems (electrically) fantastic - though it doesn't like the VVT's doublet.
Does this one?
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03-09-2016, 12:20 AM
#129
Made a small change. Profiled the teeth more like the OEM. Not sure if that's why EVO sensor doesn't like them, I've been assuming it was the gap.
Anyway, guess it would be good to get interest levels - should I order two or ten, folks? Does anyone have VVT who'd be willing to chip in $5 + whatever the cheapest reasonable shipping is to try it out?
I'm literally unemployed here folks so I just want to cover costs. If it ends up being less I'll get the shipping. :-) So far, I don't see why it's not reversible.
Anyway, guess it would be good to get interest levels - should I order two or ten, folks? Does anyone have VVT who'd be willing to chip in $5 + whatever the cheapest reasonable shipping is to try it out?
I'm literally unemployed here folks so I just want to cover costs. If it ends up being less I'll get the shipping. :-) So far, I don't see why it's not reversible.
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03-30-2016, 09:26 PM
#132
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 138
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Made a small change. Profiled the teeth more like the OEM. Not sure if that's why EVO sensor doesn't like them, I've been assuming it was the gap.
Anyway, guess it would be good to get interest levels - should I order two or ten, folks? Does anyone have VVT who'd be willing to chip in $5 + whatever the cheapest reasonable shipping is to try it out?
I'm literally unemployed here folks so I just want to cover costs. If it ends up being less I'll get the shipping. :-) So far, I don't see why it's not reversible.
Anyway, guess it would be good to get interest levels - should I order two or ten, folks? Does anyone have VVT who'd be willing to chip in $5 + whatever the cheapest reasonable shipping is to try it out?
I'm literally unemployed here folks so I just want to cover costs. If it ends up being less I'll get the shipping. :-) So far, I don't see why it's not reversible.
Anyone else have ideas for a solution? Is there any adjustment with a Rev built MS3X that would help?
We had the car out on the track a week or so ago and experienced the cut outs consistently when sitting on the rev limiter through a corner with a hot engine (my son was drifting). Let the car sit for 20-30 minutes with the hood up to cool off and it would run great with no issues with the exact same usage/time at or near the rev limiter.
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03-30-2016, 10:36 PM
#135
Great! Just waiting to see who else is in. As it stands right now (unless people want me to source the other parts which could add time but potentially save money) I just need to clean up the outer surface on the lathe (a few minutes each) and ship.
You'll have to get the Protege wheel (you can use it as is or modify it to match other popular configurations like the FM or 949 crank triggers) and the Evo sensor. I'll get part numbers put together in a single post soon.
TL;DR: If you want in let me know soon. Parts in hand, shipping soon. Instructions will be provided.
You'll have to get the Protege wheel (you can use it as is or modify it to match other popular configurations like the FM or 949 crank triggers) and the Evo sensor. I'll get part numbers put together in a single post soon.
TL;DR: If you want in let me know soon. Parts in hand, shipping soon. Instructions will be provided.
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04-02-2016, 05:42 PM
#136
Shipped two of them out. I made a couple styles in case the 'best' one didn't work, but it seems like they work even better than the one on my car. You guys can use your current sensor, or get the "evo 8" sensor Emilio found: "Beck Arnley 184-0401 CAS for Evo 8. $37.41 off Amazon".
I've used both without issue. I should experiment with different pull-ups.
Cleaning up outer diameter on lathe
I tested with all 3 sensors (OEM, Mistu-replacement, and the Evo sensor) and they all worked fine - and you could be off by quite a bit and they still worked.
You can be really off center with this sensor!
Off by about half a diameter with the Evo sensor
A few, cleaned up but not sonicated
I've used both without issue. I should experiment with different pull-ups.
Cleaning up outer diameter on lathe
I tested with all 3 sensors (OEM, Mistu-replacement, and the Evo sensor) and they all worked fine - and you could be off by quite a bit and they still worked.
You can be really off center with this sensor!
Off by about half a diameter with the Evo sensor
A few, cleaned up but not sonicated
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04-02-2016, 07:55 PM
#137
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 138
Total Cats: 5
Payment sent!
When you get a chance, if you could post up some instructions, it would be great. You mentioned needing the Protege wheel (crank?) and Evo sensor, then said that the OEM sensor would work as well...
I am starting with the OEM NB2 VVT setup/parts, including sensors and crank wheel with 4 teeth. If you could clarify which combination of parts you recommend (or that will work). Any "pointers" on whether changes will be required in the MS3 configuration would also be of great help. I don't need spoon feeding, but it would be nice start off in the right direction :-)
I appreciate you whipping these up and shipping them so quickly!
When you get a chance, if you could post up some instructions, it would be great. You mentioned needing the Protege wheel (crank?) and Evo sensor, then said that the OEM sensor would work as well...
I am starting with the OEM NB2 VVT setup/parts, including sensors and crank wheel with 4 teeth. If you could clarify which combination of parts you recommend (or that will work). Any "pointers" on whether changes will be required in the MS3 configuration would also be of great help. I don't need spoon feeding, but it would be nice start off in the right direction :-)
I appreciate you whipping these up and shipping them so quickly!
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04-03-2016, 10:37 PM
#138
Yeah, absolutely - I'll get something up pretty quick, probably in its own thread.
Basically, in TunerStudio, you change it from "miata VVT" or whatever to "Poll-Level" (I think) and get it to match the settings. There's an offset you pick between the missing tooth and the long tooth on my wheel/your cam. You pick that offset when you put the wheel on the cam so think twice about it (you don't need to do this first, you gotta get other parts). I'll put something together on that but not off the top of my head, buzzed. :-)
ANY reliable missing tooth wheel (I think they have to be consecutive missing teeth, but I'm far from solid on that - if interested, ask me!) on the crank will do. The 949 and FM dampers I'm sure would be fine - if you bought me one I'd swap it out. But for the money, there's a stock wheel off a protege (search like protege trigger wheel, or I'll post it later) that you can get for like $15 or something. You unbolt your pulley, drop the miata one in the trash, slip this one under the pulley when you put it back on and you're on the road, as is (and some TS settings!)
This should give you better VVT control and faster starting, over all more skip-resistant running.... But you really need to:
Buy the other sensor! My wheel might make enough difference that it'll work with the stock sensor, but the hope here is that the far nicer electronics of the Evo sensor won't be as prone to failure under nasty conditions.
Lastly, you can look into modding the pull up resistor on the circuit to keep heat down. This is part of the "development process" but I've been running it for a while without a single issue.
TD;DR: Search "Protege Trigger Wheel", it's $15, buy it or use any other regularly spaced missing tooth wheel you fancy on the crank - supermiata dampers included.
Probably should get Evo8 sensor ("Beck Arnley 184-0401 CAS for Evo 8. $37.41 off Amazon").
Have a megasquirt 3 or be prepared for an unknown amount of heartache getting it working. :-)
Access to a press good to have. Even a weak one or gear puller or *possibly* a mallet should do.
Basically, in TunerStudio, you change it from "miata VVT" or whatever to "Poll-Level" (I think) and get it to match the settings. There's an offset you pick between the missing tooth and the long tooth on my wheel/your cam. You pick that offset when you put the wheel on the cam so think twice about it (you don't need to do this first, you gotta get other parts). I'll put something together on that but not off the top of my head, buzzed. :-)
ANY reliable missing tooth wheel (I think they have to be consecutive missing teeth, but I'm far from solid on that - if interested, ask me!) on the crank will do. The 949 and FM dampers I'm sure would be fine - if you bought me one I'd swap it out. But for the money, there's a stock wheel off a protege (search like protege trigger wheel, or I'll post it later) that you can get for like $15 or something. You unbolt your pulley, drop the miata one in the trash, slip this one under the pulley when you put it back on and you're on the road, as is (and some TS settings!)
This should give you better VVT control and faster starting, over all more skip-resistant running.... But you really need to:
Buy the other sensor! My wheel might make enough difference that it'll work with the stock sensor, but the hope here is that the far nicer electronics of the Evo sensor won't be as prone to failure under nasty conditions.
Lastly, you can look into modding the pull up resistor on the circuit to keep heat down. This is part of the "development process" but I've been running it for a while without a single issue.
TD;DR: Search "Protege Trigger Wheel", it's $15, buy it or use any other regularly spaced missing tooth wheel you fancy on the crank - supermiata dampers included.
Probably should get Evo8 sensor ("Beck Arnley 184-0401 CAS for Evo 8. $37.41 off Amazon").
Have a megasquirt 3 or be prepared for an unknown amount of heartache getting it working. :-)
Access to a press good to have. Even a weak one or gear puller or *possibly* a mallet should do.
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04-16-2016, 11:13 PM
#139
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 138
Total Cats: 5
Yeah, absolutely - I'll get something up pretty quick, probably in its own thread.
Basically, in TunerStudio, you change it from "miata VVT" or whatever to "Poll-Level" (I think) and get it to match the settings. There's an offset you pick between the missing tooth and the long tooth on my wheel/your cam. You pick that offset when you put the wheel on the cam so think twice about it (you don't need to do this first, you gotta get other parts). I'll put something together on that but not off the top of my head, buzzed. :-)
ANY reliable missing tooth wheel (I think they have to be consecutive missing teeth, but I'm far from solid on that - if interested, ask me!) on the crank will do. The 949 and FM dampers I'm sure would be fine - if you bought me one I'd swap it out. But for the money, there's a stock wheel off a protege (search like protege trigger wheel, or I'll post it later) that you can get for like $15 or something. You unbolt your pulley, drop the miata one in the trash, slip this one under the pulley when you put it back on and you're on the road, as is (and some TS settings!)
This should give you better VVT control and faster starting, over all more skip-resistant running.... But you really need to:
Buy the other sensor! My wheel might make enough difference that it'll work with the stock sensor, but the hope here is that the far nicer electronics of the Evo sensor won't be as prone to failure under nasty conditions.
Lastly, you can look into modding the pull up resistor on the circuit to keep heat down. This is part of the "development process" but I've been running it for a while without a single issue.
TD;DR: Search "Protege Trigger Wheel", it's $15, buy it or use any other regularly spaced missing tooth wheel you fancy on the crank - supermiata dampers included.
Probably should get Evo8 sensor ("Beck Arnley 184-0401 CAS for Evo 8. $37.41 off Amazon").
Have a megasquirt 3 or be prepared for an unknown amount of heartache getting it working. :-)
Access to a press good to have. Even a weak one or gear puller or *possibly* a mallet should do.
Basically, in TunerStudio, you change it from "miata VVT" or whatever to "Poll-Level" (I think) and get it to match the settings. There's an offset you pick between the missing tooth and the long tooth on my wheel/your cam. You pick that offset when you put the wheel on the cam so think twice about it (you don't need to do this first, you gotta get other parts). I'll put something together on that but not off the top of my head, buzzed. :-)
ANY reliable missing tooth wheel (I think they have to be consecutive missing teeth, but I'm far from solid on that - if interested, ask me!) on the crank will do. The 949 and FM dampers I'm sure would be fine - if you bought me one I'd swap it out. But for the money, there's a stock wheel off a protege (search like protege trigger wheel, or I'll post it later) that you can get for like $15 or something. You unbolt your pulley, drop the miata one in the trash, slip this one under the pulley when you put it back on and you're on the road, as is (and some TS settings!)
This should give you better VVT control and faster starting, over all more skip-resistant running.... But you really need to:
Buy the other sensor! My wheel might make enough difference that it'll work with the stock sensor, but the hope here is that the far nicer electronics of the Evo sensor won't be as prone to failure under nasty conditions.
Lastly, you can look into modding the pull up resistor on the circuit to keep heat down. This is part of the "development process" but I've been running it for a while without a single issue.
TD;DR: Search "Protege Trigger Wheel", it's $15, buy it or use any other regularly spaced missing tooth wheel you fancy on the crank - supermiata dampers included.
Probably should get Evo8 sensor ("Beck Arnley 184-0401 CAS for Evo 8. $37.41 off Amazon").
Have a megasquirt 3 or be prepared for an unknown amount of heartache getting it working. :-)
Access to a press good to have. Even a weak one or gear puller or *possibly* a mallet should do.
Received the new cam trigger wheel. Thanks for sending it so quickly.
1) The Evo sensor and crank wheel sound straightforward enough.
2) Is experimenting with the pull up resistor required with a MS3? (I have a Rev built MS3X.)
3) Can you elaborate on the offset concern/issue when installing the new cam trigger wheel? I understand the concept that the ECU needs to know the relationship of the short and long teeth vs the position of the cam/engine... However, would be nice to know how to position the wheel and determine the offsets to use in TS though :-)
Thanks again for all of your help.
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04-19-2016, 03:08 PM
#140
Sorry for the tardy reply, I had family in town this weekend!
I'm frankly not entirely sure about the resistor. I don't have your circuit (what does Rev use? You could check with him on this). I think I used a 1k pull up in my testing - the highest value that works consistently is the right answer. I would say start without worrying about it, revisit if it's not working. You could also see if it's getting hot - but I don't think it will. Measuring the current draw is likely a great place to start.
There is a little something to this. Anything will work, but I think you can do a bit better.
In short, you want the missing tooth to be somewhere sane (a few teeth before the earliest you'd even have an ignition event - thought they are only 15 teeth apart anyway) - and of course, since the sensor is at about 5 pm angle on the crank pulley, that's where it needs to be (so call it 90* from vertical when the motor is at TDC #1.
You also want to make sure the poll has happened before that ignition event. The poll should happen at/just after the missing tooth (otherwise you have to wait a while for it to come around). Keep in mind the cam moves with VVT, so basically, at full advance, you want SOMETHING like this:
Trailing edge of short cam tooth to be clear of the sensor when your "read" comes up - telling Tuner Studio how many teeth after missing tooth to make the read. I'd shoot for 1, or 2. Pick that position to be in the middle of the long tooth (I think I went with 57* "poll tooth width" on this one) at the Xth tooth after the gap.
Does that make sense conceptually? I can get some numbers together as long as the process sounds reasonable, and you know what wheel you're using. In real life, I based it largely off where the stock wheel was - marking cam with awl (and original cam wheel, in case I need to put it back) then used that to orient the wheel.
You have some 15* of slop I think, and you can look up the "right" tooth from the logs once you get it all assembled. Any misalignments here will only cost you fractions of a second on start up - everything else you can fix in software.
Let me know if I'm making sense, and I'll get you some numbers when I do. You're going to use the protege wheel?
3) Can you elaborate on the offset concern/issue when installing the new cam trigger wheel? I understand the concept that the ECU needs to know the relationship of the short and long teeth vs the position of the cam/engine... However, would be nice to know how to position the wheel and determine the offsets to use in TS though :-)
In short, you want the missing tooth to be somewhere sane (a few teeth before the earliest you'd even have an ignition event - thought they are only 15 teeth apart anyway) - and of course, since the sensor is at about 5 pm angle on the crank pulley, that's where it needs to be (so call it 90* from vertical when the motor is at TDC #1.
You also want to make sure the poll has happened before that ignition event. The poll should happen at/just after the missing tooth (otherwise you have to wait a while for it to come around). Keep in mind the cam moves with VVT, so basically, at full advance, you want SOMETHING like this:
Trailing edge of short cam tooth to be clear of the sensor when your "read" comes up - telling Tuner Studio how many teeth after missing tooth to make the read. I'd shoot for 1, or 2. Pick that position to be in the middle of the long tooth (I think I went with 57* "poll tooth width" on this one) at the Xth tooth after the gap.
Does that make sense conceptually? I can get some numbers together as long as the process sounds reasonable, and you know what wheel you're using. In real life, I based it largely off where the stock wheel was - marking cam with awl (and original cam wheel, in case I need to put it back) then used that to orient the wheel.
You have some 15* of slop I think, and you can look up the "right" tooth from the logs once you get it all assembled. Any misalignments here will only cost you fractions of a second on start up - everything else you can fix in software.
Let me know if I'm making sense, and I'll get you some numbers when I do. You're going to use the protege wheel?
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