High horsepower build
08-19-2012, 06:07 PM
#41
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There is no doubt the VVT head is better for area under the curve for HP. It is just limited currently by the 7500rpm harmonic that damages the valve train. Cams are limited to regrinds at this time or expensive Maruha units. A different cam and lightened valve train components might solve the harmonic issue but who knows. Savington would have the best idea as I know Trackspeed is working on reground VVT cams. Might not even be an issue if you just want high rpms for bragging rights as the motor doesn't make huge power like a honda at elevated RPMs.
The honda intake manifold has port spacing very close to the BP head and so all that is needed is to cut the flange off the honda and a stock bp manifold and then weld them together. I think mine was about $350 for all the work. The blox manifolds are cheap and relatively easy to find. The edelbrock performer manifold might be even better but the throttle body mounting is at an odd angle. I think the begi manifold has shown power gains but it wasn't available when I did mine. One of the other members here is building sheet metal manifolds as well.
I was just thinking about my post and to be honest building cars can become a never ending quest to obtain cool parts rather than actually driving the car which is ok if that is what you want.
You could have a reliable 250whp miata for a lot less and drive the crap out of it.
Honestly I have vague fears of building this car and then stuffing it into a wall.
but that's the way it goes.
The honda intake manifold has port spacing very close to the BP head and so all that is needed is to cut the flange off the honda and a stock bp manifold and then weld them together. I think mine was about $350 for all the work. The blox manifolds are cheap and relatively easy to find. The edelbrock performer manifold might be even better but the throttle body mounting is at an odd angle. I think the begi manifold has shown power gains but it wasn't available when I did mine. One of the other members here is building sheet metal manifolds as well.
I was just thinking about my post and to be honest building cars can become a never ending quest to obtain cool parts rather than actually driving the car which is ok if that is what you want.
You could have a reliable 250whp miata for a lot less and drive the crap out of it.
Honestly I have vague fears of building this car and then stuffing it into a wall.
but that's the way it goes.
totally feel ya on the build part but 200-250whp miatas are common. I wanna be able to say ive got 100whp more
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08-19-2012, 06:15 PM
#42
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It's fine, but don't expect to dial in your boost map with it.
Reason for low compression is to keep det down. if det isn't an issue then why not get the benefits of a high comp motor. talk to sav about it if they are going to build you a motor. If you plan on running pump at all then forget it and go 8.6. There are a few members on here running higher compression on e85 and making awesome power.
Check back with your EVO/DSM community. They have probably done the most R&D on e85. I've see 11:1 pistons used.
There is no doubt the VVT head is better for area under the curve for HP. It is just limited currently by the 7500rpm harmonic that damages the valve train. Cams are limited to regrinds at this time or expensive Maruha units. A different cam and lightened valve train components might solve the harmonic issue but who knows. Savington would have the best idea as I know Trackspeed is working on reground VVT cams. Might not even be an issue if you just want high rpms for bragging rights as the motor doesn't make huge power like a honda at elevated RPMs.
This VVT cam harmonic info is BS. And how the hell would anyone know that it is 7500RPM? You sure it's not 7475RPM?
I myself have been revving to 8000RPM for 10K miles with a VVT head. Also, hit up member BogusSVO for VVT cams grinds.
And, you're wrong about high RPM power Kaiser. Well, I guess the question is "how high", but with enough boost your motor will keep making power up to at least 8000RPM. Again, I have done this myself.
Excellent info, thank you.
I am still researching pros and cons on a VVT head. I was planning on using a 99-00 head with some port/polish work and supertech valvetrain
curious on how the modded honda IM worked?
difficult to mod?
I am considering the IM Begi. offers with the 70mm throttle body
I am still researching pros and cons on a VVT head. I was planning on using a 99-00 head with some port/polish work and supertech valvetrain
curious on how the modded honda IM worked?
difficult to mod?
I am considering the IM Begi. offers with the 70mm throttle body
Basically, VVT will help you spool your turbo earlier. Same as MIVEC, the sooner you boost, the more power you have under the curve. Real world, with VVT you can spool up a GT3071 or 2871 about 500RPM sooner. How do I know? Because I did this and tested it.
The bigger turbo you go, the more advantageous variable cam phasing is. Again, ask me how I know. By messing with VVT, I was able to get my Borg 66mm turbo to hit 5-10psi more in 1st and 2nd gear! HUGE gains.
Heed my words lest ye suffer.
PUT NOTHING BY BEGI ON YOUR CAR.
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08-19-2012, 06:18 PM
#43
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I use Hydra only because Megasquirt was at version 1 when I bought the Hydra. And I didn't know jack about tuning or EMS's and couldn't support the AEM myself.
I would choose AEM now over MS any day. AEM has superb products - wideband failsafe??? axle dynamometer??? Wicked faisafe water/meth injection??? Awesome awesome shiz.
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08-19-2012, 07:02 PM
#44
No joke, If you can swing setting the car up for the ms3x stuff VE analyze live is insane awesome. Just setup target AFRs and drive. Make 2 pulls and the fuel map is pretty much spot on. Being able to run the car in fully sequential mode is nice too. Makes everything run smoother.
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08-19-2012, 10:17 PM
#46
This VVT cam harmonic info is BS. And how the hell would anyone know that it is 7500RPM? You sure it's not 7475RPM?
I myself have been revving to 8000RPM for 10K miles with a VVT head. Also, hit up member BogusSVO for VVT cams grinds.
And, you're wrong about high RPM power Kaiser. Well, I guess the question is "how high", but with enough boost your motor will keep making power up to at least 8000RPM. Again, I have done this myself.
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I myself have been revving to 8000RPM for 10K miles with a VVT head. Also, hit up member BogusSVO for VVT cams grinds.
And, you're wrong about high RPM power Kaiser. Well, I guess the question is "how high", but with enough boost your motor will keep making power up to at least 8000RPM. Again, I have done this myself.
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Certainly you could make more power at higher rpm but do you need to rev to 8K to make that power? Not according to others here.
Our goals are different. I don't need the highest hp for bragging rights I already know my dick is bigger than yours. I don't street race corvettes or exotics. No dyno queen for me. I really am trying to build something that will be fast and reliable as possible not THE fastest. Now I have nothing against what you are doing and since my car runs about as often as your car I can't ding you on that, but my goals don't require me to push the limits of the machinery in the same way as yours do.
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08-20-2012, 12:56 AM
#47
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Well maybe it is or isn't but your experience isn't really with sustained high rpm which is probably more of problem than street pulls. Others have had problems and I would simply build my car for reliability. I have a VVT head but am waiting for some more experience with cams etc from others.
Certainly you could make more power at higher rpm but do you need to rev to 8K to make that power? Not according to others here.
Our goals are different. I don't need the highest hp for bragging rights I already know my dick is bigger than yours. I don't street race corvettes or exotics. No dyno queen for me. I really am trying to build something that will be fast and reliable as possible not THE fastest. Now I have nothing against what you are doing and since my car runs about as often as your car I can't ding you on that, but my goals don't require me to push the limits of the machinery in the same way as yours do.
Certainly you could make more power at higher rpm but do you need to rev to 8K to make that power? Not according to others here.
Our goals are different. I don't need the highest hp for bragging rights I already know my dick is bigger than yours. I don't street race corvettes or exotics. No dyno queen for me. I really am trying to build something that will be fast and reliable as possible not THE fastest. Now I have nothing against what you are doing and since my car runs about as often as your car I can't ding you on that, but my goals don't require me to push the limits of the machinery in the same way as yours do.
Not trying to be a dick to you kaiser. Savington often says stuff that is wrong or unsubstantiated. Very knowledgable about some things and not others. This is one of those things. His only data point for the high rpm vvt issue is one instance. Not enough to make a conclusion at all. BTW, FM's base map has a redline of 7500 rpm for their vvt map. That means there are a lot of boosted vvt miatas out there revving that high. I doubt they have problems otherwise we would have heard it.
Ive said it before and i will keep saying it:
The ability to rev to 8500 rpm was one if the best mods i ever did, if not the best turbo related mod. With a GT30 sized turbo, the extra 800rpm makes a huge difference in daily street driveability, especially because a GT30 turbo is fully spooled about 1000 rpm later than a GT25. Gives you the same width powerband and plus you can use your whole tachometer. It really is fun.
Speaking of fun, a 330whp flappy paddle v8 that WORKS EVERYDAY is a lot of fun too
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08-20-2012, 02:17 AM
#49
Hmm, I don't know about it being just one instance. I believe Bill Wilner reported it first and I know Bob Bundy has had a couple of motors die and this was suspected as the cause. Someone stated that the intake cam for VVT motors has a destructive harmonic at 7500 although I haven't seen any proof to back this up(although this would be a reason that regrinds might not solve the problem). There are other builders that supposedly have VVT motors that rev over 8K(Ocean from Chikara I think) But why risk it for someone who wants reliable power. Because its cool isn't necessarily a good answer for someone who doesn't have unlimited resources.
It might be useful in certain situations to have a higher rev limit to stretch a gear but it doesn't mean it is faster.
In any case I don't currently have a VVT head on the car and i run an 8K redline with no worries. Someday I will have a BP with aluminum or titanium rods, custom pistons, lightened crank to make it even smoother but everyones gotta have a dream right? You want infinite horsepower, I want something different.
It might be useful in certain situations to have a higher rev limit to stretch a gear but it doesn't mean it is faster.
In any case I don't currently have a VVT head on the car and i run an 8K redline with no worries. Someday I will have a BP with aluminum or titanium rods, custom pistons, lightened crank to make it even smoother but everyones gotta have a dream right? You want infinite horsepower, I want something different.
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08-20-2012, 03:03 AM
#50
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MUCH better bang for buck to have a 3.5" or 4" downpipe and exhaust. That will help spool and overall efficiency yay
Hmm, I don't know about it being just one instance. I believe Bill Wilner reported it first and I know Bob Bundy has had a couple of motors die and this was suspected as the cause. Someone stated that the intake cam for VVT motors has a destructive harmonic at 7500 although I haven't seen any proof to back this up(although this would be a reason that regrinds might not solve the problem). There are other builders that supposedly have VVT motors that rev over 8K(Ocean from Chikara I think) But why risk it for someone who wants reliable power. Because its cool isn't necessarily a good answer for someone who doesn't have unlimited resources.
It might be useful in certain situations to have a higher rev limit to stretch a gear but it doesn't mean it is faster.
In any case I don't currently have a VVT head on the car and i run an 8K redline with no worries. Someday I will have a BP with aluminum or titanium rods, custom pistons, lightened crank to make it even smoother but everyones gotta have a dream right? You want infinite horsepower, I want something different.
It might be useful in certain situations to have a higher rev limit to stretch a gear but it doesn't mean it is faster.
In any case I don't currently have a VVT head on the car and i run an 8K redline with no worries. Someday I will have a BP with aluminum or titanium rods, custom pistons, lightened crank to make it even smoother but everyones gotta have a dream right? You want infinite horsepower, I want something different.
Comeon Kaiser. Bill is one person. Also, let's page BBundy and ask him how VVT killed his motor. I am very curious. And, unless your power takes a huge huge shizt, more RPM will be faster. Also, fun and thinking your car is cool is a huge part of what modifying cars is about.
Even if no VVT, 8000 RPM is still fun and valvesprings cost liek $3.
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08-20-2012, 08:54 AM
#52
I've also heard the OMG VVT heads break everything at 7400 rpm OH NOEIS. Then see shienker run the csp car up to 8k with stock upper end bits and bounce off the limiter. Or know the davises running a 99 head loose a spring retainer at 7700ish rpm in Toledo (that was an interesting phone call to get saturday afternoon). It almost seems to me that claim of the vvt head eating itself might have just been bad luck and any of the heads will take a **** with stock springs and retainers eventually when run up there for a few years. I wanted to be safe either way which is why I went with the upgraded springs and bits from TSE which are supposed to allow the engine to rev to 8500. I plan on keeping the redline at 8k but leaving the limiter up there in case the course is designed such that its advantageous to get those extra 5k revs worth of speed instead of shifting to 3rd.
And for things taking longer than expected. I always assume something a delivery is going to take at least a week longer than the quoted lead time. I always expect to take 3 times as long as it should, especially when working on a weekend, and expect to not have parts to finish. For my build at least I hope I've budgeted enough, though thanks to codingparadox's blog I have a reasonable idea of how much time and money its going to take to get the car beyond that level.
And for things taking longer than expected. I always assume something a delivery is going to take at least a week longer than the quoted lead time. I always expect to take 3 times as long as it should, especially when working on a weekend, and expect to not have parts to finish. For my build at least I hope I've budgeted enough, though thanks to codingparadox's blog I have a reasonable idea of how much time and money its going to take to get the car beyond that level.
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08-20-2012, 09:37 AM
#53
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Check back with your EVO/DSM community. They have probably done the most R&D on e85. I've see 11:1 pistons used.
Unless there's a SIGNIFICANT gain from running slightly higher comp (9:1) then I'll consider it.
Heed my words lest ye suffer.
PUT NOTHING BY BEGI ON YOUR CAR.
PUT NOTHING BY BEGI ON YOUR CAR.
Where the hell can I get a better flowing IM and throttle body that has been tested and will bolt on then??
No joke, If you can swing setting the car up for the ms3x stuff VE analyze live is insane awesome. Just setup target AFRs and drive. Make 2 pulls and the fuel map is pretty much spot on. Being able to run the car in fully sequential mode is nice too. Makes everything run smoother.
Not too certain yet, I've read all sorts of numbers that people are claming the 6speed trans is good for, so I'm going to test it myself. Hopefully it holds the power I'm looking to make. If not I'll keep swapping trans and rearends till I find a better solution. Thatll be a lot cheaper then getting quaife gearsets and ****.
I totally think that you can make 400whp on a stock head. I only advocate valvesprings for headwork.
MUCH better bang for buck to have a 3.5" or 4" downpipe and exhaust. That will help spool and overall efficiency yay
Kaiser. Bill is one person. Also, let's page BBundy and ask him how VVT killed his motor. I am very curious. And, unless your power takes a huge huge shizt, more RPM will be faster. Also, fun and thinking your car is cool is a huge part of what modifying cars is about.
Even if no VVT, 8000 RPM is still fun and valvesprings cost liek $3.
MUCH better bang for buck to have a 3.5" or 4" downpipe and exhaust. That will help spool and overall efficiency yay
Kaiser. Bill is one person. Also, let's page BBundy and ask him how VVT killed his motor. I am very curious. And, unless your power takes a huge huge shizt, more RPM will be faster. Also, fun and thinking your car is cool is a huge part of what modifying cars is about.
Even if no VVT, 8000 RPM is still fun and valvesprings cost liek $3.
AEM is $200 more than the mega squirt PnP...what are some real benefits the ms has over the AEM?
And for things taking longer than expected. I always assume something a delivery is going to take at least a week longer than the quoted lead time. I always expect to take 3 times as long as it should, especially when working on a weekend, and expect to not have parts to finish. For my build at least I hope I've budgeted enough, though thanks to codingparadox's blog I have a reasonable idea of how much time and money its going to take to get the car beyond that level.
I JUST QUOTED EVERYBODY IN THIS BITCH
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08-20-2012, 09:45 AM
#54
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08-20-2012, 09:52 AM
#56
How easy is the ms3 to setup and install? Can a noob tuner like myself do it? Like I said I love plug n play
Not too certain yet, I've read all sorts of numbers that people are claming the 6speed trans is good for, so I'm going to test it myself. Hopefully it holds the power I'm looking to make. If not I'll keep swapping trans and rearends till I find a better solution. Thatll be a lot cheaper then getting quaife gearsets and ****.
Not too certain yet, I've read all sorts of numbers that people are claming the 6speed trans is good for, so I'm going to test it myself. Hopefully it holds the power I'm looking to make. If not I'll keep swapping trans and rearends till I find a better solution. Thatll be a lot cheaper then getting quaife gearsets and ****.
I heard mixed reviews on the 6 speed over 3-350 (search for discussions on this forum on this topic) so i decided on the RX-7 stuff. Mounting the rear diff and transmission is pretty standard procedure now so the only thing you'd need to decide which method to mate the trans to the engine. See my build thread or Mightymouses' for ideas / details.
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08-20-2012, 12:46 PM
#57
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Oh yeah? Details please on how it does the failsafes. Get off the bandwagon and stop spreading ignorant misinformation.
I've also heard the OMG VVT heads break everything at 7400 rpm OH NOEIS. Then see shienker run the csp car up to 8k with stock upper end bits and bounce off the limiter. Or know the davises running a 99 head loose a spring retainer at 7700ish rpm in Toledo (that was an interesting phone call to get saturday afternoon). It almost seems to me that claim of the vvt head eating itself might have just been bad luck and any of the heads will take a **** with stock springs and retainers eventually when run up there for a few years. I wanted to be safe either way which is why I went with the upgraded springs and bits from TSE which are supposed to allow the engine to rev to 8500. I plan on keeping the redline at 8k but leaving the limiter up there in case the course is designed such that its advantageous to get those extra 5k revs worth of speed instead of shifting to 3rd.
BEHOLD WORLD, FOR HERE WE HAVE A MAN
I don't plan on running e-85 100% of the time, most likely 93octane as well. I'm assuming I'll be running upwards of 20psi to reach said power levels and I want to eliminate any chances of knock as much as possible.
Unless there's a SIGNIFICANT gain from running slightly higher comp (9:1) then I'll consider it.
I'm a plug n play, bolt on kinda guy. I hate doing custom fab **** cause it usally turns into a hack job steaming turd situation that I want to avoid!! I'm sure you know what I mean Faeflora.
Where the hell can I get a better flowing IM and throttle body that has been tested and will bolt on then??
How easy is the ms3 to setup and install? Can a noob tuner like myself do it? Like I said I love plug n play
That should be good for 8k revs?
AEM is $200 more than the mega squirt PnP...what are some real benefits the ms has over the AEM?
Unless there's a SIGNIFICANT gain from running slightly higher comp (9:1) then I'll consider it.
I'm a plug n play, bolt on kinda guy. I hate doing custom fab **** cause it usally turns into a hack job steaming turd situation that I want to avoid!! I'm sure you know what I mean Faeflora.
Where the hell can I get a better flowing IM and throttle body that has been tested and will bolt on then??
How easy is the ms3 to setup and install? Can a noob tuner like myself do it? Like I said I love plug n play
That should be good for 8k revs?
AEM is $200 more than the mega squirt PnP...what are some real benefits the ms has over the AEM?
I say avoid BEGI because almost every single part I ordered from them as part of the S5 kit WAS A steaming hack job turd. I had to send things back many many times and crucial parts of the design were HORRID SUCK.
Get a good custom manifold, downpipe, and do your IC piping yourself.
You will not be able to setup and run the MS3 yourself. That applies to nothing but a Cobb Accessport. MS3 will require MUCH more work than a Hydra. Look at the bazillions of "my obscure setting is fuxed" posts here. The difference between Hydra and MS3 is that FM has a map for every single configuration which means less diddling. Yes, there is a huge price difference and if you're willing to learn how to tune then go the route of AEM or MS3. They will ALL PUT OUT THE SAME AMOUNT OF HORSEPOWER.
Oil pump gears + valvesprings = 8500RPM yay
In no world would I choose a MS3 over an AEM. No extra benefits other than dork.
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08-20-2012, 01:22 PM
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I say avoid BEGI because almost every single part I ordered from them as part of the S5 kit WAS A steaming hack job turd. I had to send things back many many times and crucial parts of the design were HORRID SUCK.
Get a good custom manifold, downpipe, and do your IC piping yourself.
I was hoping to drop the cash once on the kit and get everything I need at the same time to make the install easier. Piecing all this custom **** sounds like a pain in the *** but you guys are the pros so I'll believe ya.
You will not be able to setup and run the MS3 yourself. That applies to nothing but a Cobb Accessport. MS3 will require MUCH more work than a Hydra. Look at the bazillions of "my obscure setting is fuxed" posts here. The difference between Hydra and MS3 is that FM has a map for every single configuration which means less diddling. Yes, there is a huge price difference and if you're willing to learn how to tune then go the route of AEM or MS3. They will ALL PUT OUT THE SAME AMOUNT OF HORSEPOWER.
Oil pump gears + valvesprings = 8500RPM yay
I greatly appreciate Fae sharing his knowledge and experience with me. This gives me more confidence in my build and what to expect. Exactly what I was looking to get out of this thread. Isn't that what forums are for? To help people?
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