JE vs Wiesco vs Eagle vs Carrillo, brand name vs cheap parts strength...?
10-25-2009, 11:01 PM
#1
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JE vs Wiesco vs Eagle vs Carrillo, brand name vs cheap parts strength...?
So, I'm having some fun hear tearing through the different combinations of rods, pistons, A-beam vs H-beam vs I-beam vs X-beam, and all the brand name's vs the likely Tiawanese/chinese replica's, and or original products simply made overseas.
As well as Some brands like Supertech whom, well, I don't know what to make out of.
Kinda watched the Supertech piston Gb come and go just due to my own insecurities with what to get. Not going to get into comp ratio/overbore issues here, but I was wondering if anyone has some solid evidence/testing on any of the brand name rods vs. not-so-brand name rods, and pistons for that matter.
I've been considering bringing in a set of Carrillo A-beams and grabbing 1 Eagle or Supertech or Etc Rod and checking out grain structure, and been wondering where I can maybe get a destruction test done on a cheaper H (at >400$ a set it might be a worthwhile endeavor!)
Either way, long-winded stream of consciousness aside, a Who's running what with how much power on how many miles would always be helpful.
Currently, I'm leaning toward Carrillo A's and Wiesco 9:1's for 270 dd whp forever, but I'd like to see real world support too.
As well as Some brands like Supertech whom, well, I don't know what to make out of.
Kinda watched the Supertech piston Gb come and go just due to my own insecurities with what to get. Not going to get into comp ratio/overbore issues here, but I was wondering if anyone has some solid evidence/testing on any of the brand name rods vs. not-so-brand name rods, and pistons for that matter.
I've been considering bringing in a set of Carrillo A-beams and grabbing 1 Eagle or Supertech or Etc Rod and checking out grain structure, and been wondering where I can maybe get a destruction test done on a cheaper H (at >400$ a set it might be a worthwhile endeavor!)
Either way, long-winded stream of consciousness aside, a Who's running what with how much power on how many miles would always be helpful.
Currently, I'm leaning toward Carrillo A's and Wiesco 9:1's for 270 dd whp forever, but I'd like to see real world support too.
Last edited by chance91; 10-26-2009 at 01:44 AM.
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10-26-2009, 10:12 PM
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Well, bummer. Kinda was hoping some more people would having interesting/technical info to add... oh well.
I have decided to do the testing myself instead, cause I'm rather bored.
I spoke with a few professors today, and we are getting some tests put together for a number of rods, initially. I may add the results for a few of the tests from the pistons I get. Likely the wiesco's.
Looks like we are going to start ASAP on my Carrillo A's and do a grain structure analysis, to help us make conjecture's at its build quality and strength. We will likely also give a composition analysis a shot as well.
Finally, we are going to use the Carrillo rod to create our jig for a set of rods in our hydraulic setup. I'm going to get my hands on either one or a set of ETD, Eagle, M-tuned, and etc rods, and we are going to do the grain structure, composition, and then destruction tests. Then figure out the yield point on each of the cheaper rods, and compare this to the Carrillo's two test results, without destroying the Carrillo, and analyze the results.
I'll have more info as I work out the plans more tomorrow. I'm taking my set of Carrillo A's with me to the lab tomorrow morning.
I have decided to do the testing myself instead, cause I'm rather bored.
I spoke with a few professors today, and we are getting some tests put together for a number of rods, initially. I may add the results for a few of the tests from the pistons I get. Likely the wiesco's.
Looks like we are going to start ASAP on my Carrillo A's and do a grain structure analysis, to help us make conjecture's at its build quality and strength. We will likely also give a composition analysis a shot as well.
Finally, we are going to use the Carrillo rod to create our jig for a set of rods in our hydraulic setup. I'm going to get my hands on either one or a set of ETD, Eagle, M-tuned, and etc rods, and we are going to do the grain structure, composition, and then destruction tests. Then figure out the yield point on each of the cheaper rods, and compare this to the Carrillo's two test results, without destroying the Carrillo, and analyze the results.
I'll have more info as I work out the plans more tomorrow. I'm taking my set of Carrillo A's with me to the lab tomorrow morning.
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10-27-2009, 12:21 AM
#8
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Gay thread..? He's testing the material properties of the different internals we have to choose from. What's even better he is doing it purely for the fun. Maybe the geek content is just giving me a hard on, but I will happily say that I appreciate what your doing. I'm going to need to find something similar to do in one of my final engineering classes next semester.
Carry on..
Michael
Carry on..
Michael
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10-27-2009, 02:35 AM
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Or, even, that Carrillo rods are worth $1000 a set when we can get a set for $3-400 with similar or near identical construction.
Eh, but hey, I almost see your point. You are correct, even in the fact I could likely, no, I could make 270hp with what I got. Of course, as we all likely know, you can make a ton of power, and at a certain point longevity can go out the window. I'd really like to build a motor with a good amount of power that has internals that will have longevity of stock or near stock with the power I'm putting down reliable and everyday.
However, again, you likely have a point in that the information, save the grain structure and composition analysis will be useless, to me. I'm going to do it anyway though, because for the most part it is easy, and I've already got a few teachers rev'd up about it.
I've done more searching and poking, and I'd like the compression-destruction test to include a B6/Bp stock rod, a FE-dohc rod, and maybe 3-4 etd/cat/eagle/m-tune rods as well. My conjecture is that comparing the Grain structure results with the destroyed rods and the one Carrillo I won't crush will give me enough information to make an informed conclusion as to its capabilities.
If all goes well, at least we will polish and test a Carrillo tomorrow.
Oh, and I'm throwing in an Alamo FE-dohc rod in as well. Its another Ching-chong Meow rod as well.
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10-27-2009, 07:13 AM
#11
You do realize that your rod and piston choice won't be the limiting factor on longevity. It'll be your rings. Any aftermarket rod or piston combo will last indefinitely assuming a good tune. That doesn't mean you'll keep good compression and/or not get a bunch of blowby pushing a ton of boost through your BP (or B6).
My Crower/Ross combo from 1996 is still running after considerable amount of abuse as far as I know, but I'm not sure how the compression and leakdown numbers are on the motor.
Frank
My Crower/Ross combo from 1996 is still running after considerable amount of abuse as far as I know, but I'm not sure how the compression and leakdown numbers are on the motor.
Frank
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10-27-2009, 09:17 AM
#12
Not a gay thread at all.
I've spoken to 3 different engine builders so far, getting ready for my build.
One guy I spoke to who builds primarily V8s for circle track and drag cars said specifically to stay away from Eagle rods because he has seen issues with them during magnaflux testing, and has seen variances in their machining. He said Carillos have always been 100%. He also mentioned Crower as another very high quality alternative, as well as Scat, although there doesn't appear to be an ots Scat for the BP/B6.
On the other hand, I spoke to another builder who has vast import experience, Honda, Nissan, some Mazda and Toyota. He says even on his high-horsepower Honda drag builds, 75% use Eagle, and has had no issues with them at all.
Again, all this may be pointlessly academic, since we are not looking to put huge loads on these rods. But, if you are going through the time, trouble, and expense, one train of thought may be to go the extra few hundred for the top shelf. I am in for results.
I've spoken to 3 different engine builders so far, getting ready for my build.
One guy I spoke to who builds primarily V8s for circle track and drag cars said specifically to stay away from Eagle rods because he has seen issues with them during magnaflux testing, and has seen variances in their machining. He said Carillos have always been 100%. He also mentioned Crower as another very high quality alternative, as well as Scat, although there doesn't appear to be an ots Scat for the BP/B6.
On the other hand, I spoke to another builder who has vast import experience, Honda, Nissan, some Mazda and Toyota. He says even on his high-horsepower Honda drag builds, 75% use Eagle, and has had no issues with them at all.
Again, all this may be pointlessly academic, since we are not looking to put huge loads on these rods. But, if you are going through the time, trouble, and expense, one train of thought may be to go the extra few hundred for the top shelf. I am in for results.
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10-27-2009, 10:52 AM
#13
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Of course, people should always buy the best parts money can buy...so why not put BME's in a motor with exhaust ports the size of my thumb? I better use of the additional $1400 to run Carrillo and Ross would probably justify swapping in a real engine like an S2k, motorcycle engine, or V8.
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10-28-2009, 01:07 AM
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there was a post on clubprotege.com about the cat,mtuned,bel-fab rods having probleds fitting in the wrist pin and that they had to be machined. so i would check the size in that area. im in the same boat i have the money to buy some pistons and rods but im not sure what i want to buy. im also curious to about the pistons, flyin miata says there pistons are custom made to there specs for the bp's im wondering if this is true or just marketing b.s.
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10-28-2009, 01:10 AM
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FM's wiesco's are a bit different, but not by a ton, If I remember right something about the coatings and provisions for the oil squirters... you can always ask them.
IMO, I'd go for the rod/piston set off of ebay with the Wiescos for about 760 or so, and sell the rods if you don't want them.
Ok, I hear you there hustler, but that's not what I'm saying. What I really want to find out with this endeavor is basically, What does that extra coin actually net you?
I'm going to start out with the Yield points of different rod combos and evaluate the construction, and go from there.
Still debating on what to do with pistons. Likely no destruction tests as I see little point on the pistons. Feel free to chip in helpfull advice. Notice, I spelt advice right. Go me..
IMO, I'd go for the rod/piston set off of ebay with the Wiescos for about 760 or so, and sell the rods if you don't want them.
Of course, people should always buy the best parts money can buy...so why not put BME's in a motor with exhaust ports the size of my thumb? I better use of the additional $1400 to run Carrillo and Ross would probably justify swapping in a real engine like an S2k, motorcycle engine, or V8.
I'm going to start out with the Yield points of different rod combos and evaluate the construction, and go from there.
Still debating on what to do with pistons. Likely no destruction tests as I see little point on the pistons. Feel free to chip in helpfull advice. Notice, I spelt advice right. Go me..
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10-28-2009, 01:32 AM
#16
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But you mis-spelled "helpful". 
Seriously though, are you planning to actually do destructive testing on these rods? If so, then there is much awesomeness here. I'd suggest that the rods should be tested not only in compression, but in tension as well, as this is suspected to be a common contributor to rod failure, by way of inertial stress.
Ideally, the latter should ideally be done in such a way that data is produced both for the main body of the rod as well as for the assembly of the rod and cap using the provided bolts. IOW, do the bolts or cap deform in tension before the rod does?
Seriously though, are you planning to actually do destructive testing on these rods? If so, then there is much awesomeness here. I'd suggest that the rods should be tested not only in compression, but in tension as well, as this is suspected to be a common contributor to rod failure, by way of inertial stress.
Ideally, the latter should ideally be done in such a way that data is produced both for the main body of the rod as well as for the assembly of the rod and cap using the provided bolts. IOW, do the bolts or cap deform in tension before the rod does?
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10-28-2009, 12:39 PM
#17
This has potential to be very very informative.
To more fully answer the question of "what the does extra coin get you," consider placing the various sets of rods in a CMM to assess machining variation and accuracy.
Second JP's suggestion to test the rods as an assembly, in addition to the 'coupon' testing.
To more fully answer the question of "what the does extra coin get you," consider placing the various sets of rods in a CMM to assess machining variation and accuracy.
Second JP's suggestion to test the rods as an assembly, in addition to the 'coupon' testing.
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10-28-2009, 02:07 PM
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Those are both interesting points.
I was talking with the guy who runs our machine shop yesterday about the testing and we were mocking up what we would need to do the compression test in our machine, and he mentioned tension testing.
I was under the impression that early detonation was the main killer of rods, where you have a force pushing down the piston/rod against the crank and the crank is at an angle such that it has no give, there for you are crushing the rod/piston against the crank, I guess. This was the main reason I chose to do compression.
What would the tension be involved in as far as rods coming apart? I just can't visualize its effect, not negating that it couldn't happen, I just don't see it.
Also, the test we mocked up doesn't have the caps on for compression, but we can do a tension test with caps/bolts fully torqued.
As far as whole sets, I can see what I can do, but that begins to cost a good bit. I will do the full set of Carrillo's for their consistency though.
I was talking with the guy who runs our machine shop yesterday about the testing and we were mocking up what we would need to do the compression test in our machine, and he mentioned tension testing.
I was under the impression that early detonation was the main killer of rods, where you have a force pushing down the piston/rod against the crank and the crank is at an angle such that it has no give, there for you are crushing the rod/piston against the crank, I guess. This was the main reason I chose to do compression.
What would the tension be involved in as far as rods coming apart? I just can't visualize its effect, not negating that it couldn't happen, I just don't see it.
Also, the test we mocked up doesn't have the caps on for compression, but we can do a tension test with caps/bolts fully torqued.
As far as whole sets, I can see what I can do, but that begins to cost a good bit. I will do the full set of Carrillo's for their consistency though.
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10-28-2009, 02:38 PM
#19
Those are both interesting points.
I was talking with the guy who runs our machine shop yesterday about the testing and we were mocking up what we would need to do the compression test in our machine, and he mentioned tension testing.
I was under the impression that early detonation was the main killer of rods, where you have a force pushing down the piston/rod against the crank and the crank is at an angle such that it has no give, there for you are crushing the rod/piston against the crank, I guess. This was the main reason I chose to do compression.
What would the tension be involved in as far as rods coming apart? I just can't visualize its effect, not negating that it couldn't happen, I just don't see it.
Also, the test we mocked up doesn't have the caps on for compression, but we can do a tension test with caps/bolts fully torqued.
As far as whole sets, I can see what I can do, but that begins to cost a good bit. I will do the full set of Carrillo's for their consistency though.
I was talking with the guy who runs our machine shop yesterday about the testing and we were mocking up what we would need to do the compression test in our machine, and he mentioned tension testing.
I was under the impression that early detonation was the main killer of rods, where you have a force pushing down the piston/rod against the crank and the crank is at an angle such that it has no give, there for you are crushing the rod/piston against the crank, I guess. This was the main reason I chose to do compression.
What would the tension be involved in as far as rods coming apart? I just can't visualize its effect, not negating that it couldn't happen, I just don't see it.
Also, the test we mocked up doesn't have the caps on for compression, but we can do a tension test with caps/bolts fully torqued.
As far as whole sets, I can see what I can do, but that begins to cost a good bit. I will do the full set of Carrillo's for their consistency though.
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