K series Miata swap
03-17-2013, 01:37 PM
#21
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So no turbo for this motor? Seems like a lot of work for something that can be spanked by a miata with a Greddy kit.
Edit: What is the appeal of revving to 10k? I don't see how waiting an extra 3k to reach peak power is a good thing.
Edit: I get the appeal of having a super reliable track motor. Just curious about the choice of motor. Cost vs. power output. Seems like v-band turbo kit would be more economical, and have much more torque.
Edit: Can't wait to see it done, though.
Edit: What is the appeal of revving to 10k? I don't see how waiting an extra 3k to reach peak power is a good thing.
Edit: I get the appeal of having a super reliable track motor. Just curious about the choice of motor. Cost vs. power output. Seems like v-band turbo kit would be more economical, and have much more torque.
Edit: Can't wait to see it done, though.
Agreed on geometry, that was something that kind of irked me with the few s2000 swaps ive seen on this forum.
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03-17-2013, 02:20 PM
#23
250hp/190trq N/A is not really appealing. A 230whp turbo miata be faster due to making power sooner and gobs more torque. Miata would break down on the track first, though. lol.
tl;dr - I drive on the street, so I am stupid. apples/oranges
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03-17-2013, 02:32 PM
#24
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I think its hilarious that you guys think a Hybrid K20/K24 is a reliable motor, especially when reved to 10k.
The F20C and F22C were the best production 4 cylinders honda ever made and they fit in a miata without adapting to a different transmission. I cannot begin to understand what would possess someone to go through all this trouble when there is a easier and better option in plain view.
Just like the old H22, which was a fabulous engine, the F20C/F22C have metal composite cylinder lines. These are lighter, and create less friction than the iron liners found in other engines (like the K series). But, because you cannot bore them, and because Honda kids tear through engines like hot cakes, this is seen as a bad thing.
With accords and preludes, you even see people using the F22A/B bottom end from the standard accord to replace the bottom ends of their H22s, because they want to be able to bore it, regardless of the fact that it has a worse rod/stroke ratio and doesnt have as good of an oiling system.
Then, there is EMS. If you cant slap a Hondata on it, it doesnt get used. Half of the S2000s have to be run on a standalone because the Hondata K-Pro doesnt work on them. If you understood how EMS works, this wouldnt be a problem, but if you need a plug n' play solution, then its a real problem. Honda guys are so spoiled by EMS being so cheap and easy that any barricades lead to the mentality of "**** that engine", in this case, **** the F22C.
The K20 is older than the F20/F22. It is a dual purpose engines, designed for economy and making enough power to compete with the GTI and other such boy racer cars. Which is why it has VVT in addition to having VTEC on both cams.
The F20C is a purely performance oriented engine, it has a higher Bore/Stroke ratio. It has a better Rod/Stroke ratio. It has a better oiling system. The head is more simple/reliable because it doesnt have VVT.
The head flows better:
So of course it makes more power and revs higher.
and there are plenty of legitimate race parts, just like the K20 (except the K20 parts are mostly designed for going in a straight line for a few seconds):
The F20C and F22C were the best production 4 cylinders honda ever made and they fit in a miata without adapting to a different transmission. I cannot begin to understand what would possess someone to go through all this trouble when there is a easier and better option in plain view.
Just like the old H22, which was a fabulous engine, the F20C/F22C have metal composite cylinder lines. These are lighter, and create less friction than the iron liners found in other engines (like the K series). But, because you cannot bore them, and because Honda kids tear through engines like hot cakes, this is seen as a bad thing.
With accords and preludes, you even see people using the F22A/B bottom end from the standard accord to replace the bottom ends of their H22s, because they want to be able to bore it, regardless of the fact that it has a worse rod/stroke ratio and doesnt have as good of an oiling system.
Then, there is EMS. If you cant slap a Hondata on it, it doesnt get used. Half of the S2000s have to be run on a standalone because the Hondata K-Pro doesnt work on them. If you understood how EMS works, this wouldnt be a problem, but if you need a plug n' play solution, then its a real problem. Honda guys are so spoiled by EMS being so cheap and easy that any barricades lead to the mentality of "**** that engine", in this case, **** the F22C.
The K20 is older than the F20/F22. It is a dual purpose engines, designed for economy and making enough power to compete with the GTI and other such boy racer cars. Which is why it has VVT in addition to having VTEC on both cams.
The F20C is a purely performance oriented engine, it has a higher Bore/Stroke ratio. It has a better Rod/Stroke ratio. It has a better oiling system. The head is more simple/reliable because it doesnt have VVT.
The head flows better:
So of course it makes more power and revs higher.
and there are plenty of legitimate race parts, just like the K20 (except the K20 parts are mostly designed for going in a straight line for a few seconds):
Last edited by Full_Tilt_Boogie; 03-17-2013 at 03:16 PM.
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03-17-2013, 02:40 PM
#25
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I like this. I don't race so I am thinking street applications. I like having options, so an extra motor choice is always a good option if cost doesn't get too far out of control.
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03-17-2013, 04:31 PM
#28
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The F20C and F22C were the best production 4 cylinders honda ever made and they fit in a miata without adapting to a different transmission. I cannot begin to understand what would possess someone to go through all this trouble when there is a easier and better option in plain view.
Funny you brought up the H22 because the same exact was true of that vs. the B-series. H22 was the better engine out of the box but because of the limited market it was pretty much ignored by the aftermarket.
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03-17-2013, 04:51 PM
#29
I'd hit it. I really like the K series. Its not legal in my class. But if I was building a fun street miata and wanted to swap something, it would be a tough choice between this and the ecotec and would really come down to which one required less steering rack moving.
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03-17-2013, 06:25 PM
#35
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Hi Emilio. I am really glad to hear 949 Racing is putting this together. I really love the VTech of Honda motors and wish my Miata had this VTech. Please let me know soonest available price and time for delivery.
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03-17-2013, 06:44 PM
#39
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Hi everyone. I made the thread on k20a.org, and had the adapter plate made. It's Austin's car.
Lets clarify a couple things about K24s to the Miata community. I have a STOCK K24A2 (2006 TSX motor) in my road race Integra. Only mods are RSX oil pump and some stage 1 cams and dual valvesprings. Rev limit is 8200 RPM. NOT 10K.
My car makes 247whp, 192wtq. There is a reason people have started swapping K24s into S2000s. VTC is a big one, which f20c and f22c does not have. If you do not understand what this is, watch this:
300whp all motor goes on all day on k20a.org with nothing more than a ported head, some cams, high compression pistons, and the necessary bolt ons that can flow the power.
We have some tricks up our sleeves with the steering rack, and yes we will eventually have a full tubular subframe done, the chopped stock subframe is just for the first one
Lets clarify a couple things about K24s to the Miata community. I have a STOCK K24A2 (2006 TSX motor) in my road race Integra. Only mods are RSX oil pump and some stage 1 cams and dual valvesprings. Rev limit is 8200 RPM. NOT 10K.
My car makes 247whp, 192wtq. There is a reason people have started swapping K24s into S2000s. VTC is a big one, which f20c and f22c does not have. If you do not understand what this is, watch this:
300whp all motor goes on all day on k20a.org with nothing more than a ported head, some cams, high compression pistons, and the necessary bolt ons that can flow the power.
We have some tricks up our sleeves with the steering rack, and yes we will eventually have a full tubular subframe done, the chopped stock subframe is just for the first one
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