K series Miata swap
03-17-2013, 07:13 PM
#41
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I think its hilarious that you guys think a Hybrid K20/K24 is a reliable motor, especially when reved to 10k.
The F20C and F22C were the best production 4 cylinders honda ever made and they fit in a miata without adapting to a different transmission. I cannot begin to understand what would possess someone to go through all this trouble when there is a easier and better option in plain view.
Just like the old H22, which was a fabulous engine, the F20C/F22C have metal composite cylinder lines. These are lighter, and create less friction than the iron liners found in other engines (like the K series). But, because you cannot bore them, and because Honda kids tear through engines like hot cakes, this is seen as a bad thing.
With accords and preludes, you even see people using the F22A/B bottom end from the standard accord to replace the bottom ends of their H22s, because they want to be able to bore it, regardless of the fact that it has a worse rod/stroke ratio and doesnt have as good of an oiling system.
Then, there is EMS. If you cant slap a Hondata on it, it doesnt get used. Half of the S2000s have to be run on a standalone because the Hondata K-Pro doesnt work on them. If you understood how EMS works, this wouldnt be a problem, but if you need a plug n' play solution, then its a real problem. Honda guys are so spoiled by EMS being so cheap and easy that any barricades lead to the mentality of "**** that engine", in this case, **** the F22C.
The K20 is older than the F20/F22. It is a dual purpose engines, designed for economy and making enough power to compete with the GTI and other such boy racer cars. Which is why it has VVT in addition to having VTEC on both cams.
The F20C is a purely performance oriented engine, it has a higher Bore/Stroke ratio. It has a better Rod/Stroke ratio. It has a better oiling system. The head is more simple/reliable because it doesnt have VVT.
The head flows better:
So of course it makes more power and revs higher.
and there are plenty of legitimate race parts, just like the K20 (except the K20 parts are mostly designed for going in a straight line for a few seconds):
The F20C and F22C were the best production 4 cylinders honda ever made and they fit in a miata without adapting to a different transmission. I cannot begin to understand what would possess someone to go through all this trouble when there is a easier and better option in plain view.
Just like the old H22, which was a fabulous engine, the F20C/F22C have metal composite cylinder lines. These are lighter, and create less friction than the iron liners found in other engines (like the K series). But, because you cannot bore them, and because Honda kids tear through engines like hot cakes, this is seen as a bad thing.
With accords and preludes, you even see people using the F22A/B bottom end from the standard accord to replace the bottom ends of their H22s, because they want to be able to bore it, regardless of the fact that it has a worse rod/stroke ratio and doesnt have as good of an oiling system.
Then, there is EMS. If you cant slap a Hondata on it, it doesnt get used. Half of the S2000s have to be run on a standalone because the Hondata K-Pro doesnt work on them. If you understood how EMS works, this wouldnt be a problem, but if you need a plug n' play solution, then its a real problem. Honda guys are so spoiled by EMS being so cheap and easy that any barricades lead to the mentality of "**** that engine", in this case, **** the F22C.
The K20 is older than the F20/F22. It is a dual purpose engines, designed for economy and making enough power to compete with the GTI and other such boy racer cars. Which is why it has VVT in addition to having VTEC on both cams.
The F20C is a purely performance oriented engine, it has a higher Bore/Stroke ratio. It has a better Rod/Stroke ratio. It has a better oiling system. The head is more simple/reliable because it doesnt have VVT.
The head flows better:
So of course it makes more power and revs higher.
and there are plenty of legitimate race parts, just like the K20 (except the K20 parts are mostly designed for going in a straight line for a few seconds):
I realize the F20/F22 is a really desirable motor. A K20/K24 hybrid (which is NOT what we are doing anyway), is 100% reliable, and nobody revs their K's to 10,000 rpm in a road racing environment.
We are just doing a simpler, hopefully cheaper, and much more powerful version of an F20 swap. The torque and powerband alone is a world of a difference compared to an F20. Show me an NA 300+whp, 220wtq F22C that can handle road racing abuse (with peak torque beginning before 4000rpm), and we will scrap the project and do an F swap
Our car will be tuned on Kpro. EMS is a non-issue here. (BTW you can also run Kpro in an S2000).
10 mins on k20a.org makes it clear that K series engines and K20/24 make big reliable power. It is the Honda road racing engine of choice, hands down, and thus the best NA 4 cylinder engine option available.
Last edited by KMiata; 03-17-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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03-17-2013, 08:43 PM
#45
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not to mention buying used parts it can be relatively cheap...but no one seems to like to build new wet sump oil pans for engine swaps into miatas... I figure the benefits out weigh the costs especially when you can weld
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03-17-2013, 09:33 PM
#46
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I almost did this instead of my current motor setup. One day I'll probably go to a k24 setup. I just didn't wanna do all the labor right now, or give up my a/c. I'm sure TSX motors will come down in price too.
I don't get why they used a miata trans. A S2000 trans is easily attainable for $350-$500 if you look. Cheaper or same price as miata 6 speed and a better trans.
I don't get why they used a miata trans. A S2000 trans is easily attainable for $350-$500 if you look. Cheaper or same price as miata 6 speed and a better trans.
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03-17-2013, 10:23 PM
#48
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I almost did this instead of my current motor setup. One day I'll probably go to a k24 setup. I just didn't wanna do all the labor right now, or give up my a/c. I'm sure TSX motors will come down in price too.
I don't get why they used a miata trans. A S2000 trans is easily attainable for $350-$500 if you look. Cheaper or same price as miata 6 speed and a better trans.
I don't get why they used a miata trans. A S2000 trans is easily attainable for $350-$500 if you look. Cheaper or same price as miata 6 speed and a better trans.
We definitely discussed this idea, but Miata transmissions are dime a dozen, and can handle our power goals, especially in a road race environment.
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03-18-2013, 09:27 AM
#49
Yeah and bolts right in, vs having to address the drivetrain in addition to the engine fab.
Keep it simple. Or at least do 1 thing at a time.
....sidenote: one of our current cars is an 04 TSX. I must say: the K24 is a really cool little engine. Torque and response all over the place, and gets the porky sedan moving without too much trouble.
I can definitely see it being a ton of fun in a 2200lb miata. with bolt ons and some work all the swapped cars I've seen sporting them were surprisingly quick.
Keep it simple. Or at least do 1 thing at a time.
....sidenote: one of our current cars is an 04 TSX. I must say: the K24 is a really cool little engine. Torque and response all over the place, and gets the porky sedan moving without too much trouble.
I can definitely see it being a ton of fun in a 2200lb miata. with bolt ons and some work all the swapped cars I've seen sporting them were surprisingly quick.
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03-18-2013, 02:03 PM
#51
My notes show that a fully dressed BP is about 296#. Anyone know what a fully dressed K20 and K24 weighs?
I'm guessing that the OEM oil pans in K's won't be baffle correctly for longitudinal installation. That and the steering rack conflict might indicate that a reworked pick up, baffle and sump might be a good idea.
I'm guessing that the OEM oil pans in K's won't be baffle correctly for longitudinal installation. That and the steering rack conflict might indicate that a reworked pick up, baffle and sump might be a good idea.
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03-18-2013, 04:32 PM
#53
I am 100% all about this swap. I really hope it goes well, they should just buy mountless v8roadster sub frame and make a jig and mod it for the K, and a custom or atleast modified pan would be good.
a nice swap kit would be
flywheel
adapter plate
subframe
oil pan
harness
header
a nice swap kit would be
flywheel
adapter plate
subframe
oil pan
harness
header
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03-18-2013, 04:45 PM
#54
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I see honda kids boost these to 500+whp all day long. I'm sure it's nowhere near track reliable, but certainly says a ton about hondas engineering.
I'm thinking even the most basic k24 will make over 200whp. You can pull k24's out of CRV's for well under 2 grand
200+whp all motor, tons of torque, tons of motors around since its a honda. I'd probably do this over lsx assuming the weight is kept down to near what a stock BP is and the steering geometry isnt fubard.
I'm thinking even the most basic k24 will make over 200whp. You can pull k24's out of CRV's for well under 2 grand
200+whp all motor, tons of torque, tons of motors around since its a honda. I'd probably do this over lsx assuming the weight is kept down to near what a stock BP is and the steering geometry isnt fubard.
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03-18-2013, 05:13 PM
#55
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I see honda kids boost these to 500+whp all day long. I'm sure it's nowhere near track reliable, but certainly says a ton about hondas engineering.
I'm thinking even the most basic k24 will make over 200whp. You can pull k24's out of CRV's for well under 2 grand
200+whp all motor, tons of torque, tons of motors around since its a honda. I'd probably do this over lsx assuming the weight is kept down to near what a stock BP is and the steering geometry isnt fubard.
I'm thinking even the most basic k24 will make over 200whp. You can pull k24's out of CRV's for well under 2 grand
200+whp all motor, tons of torque, tons of motors around since its a honda. I'd probably do this over lsx assuming the weight is kept down to near what a stock BP is and the steering geometry isnt fubard.
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03-18-2013, 05:17 PM
#56
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Id love to hear about all these s2000 guys with K swaps, because there are not very many. Plus, like I mentioned before, I can almost gaurantee that the driving force behind that is that it can be tuned with K-Pro and because it can be bored over when they break ringlands running 20 psi on a basemap.
The F is a better engine, hands down. The only reason anybody thinks otherwise is because theyve been influenced by honda-tech group think.
I remember when a large portion of the Honda community though the K series was trash, because when it came out it was quite lame, but also because it was different and because it couldn't be tuned with a trusty chipped OBD-I ECU.
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03-18-2013, 05:36 PM
#57
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That said, the tsx k24 motors are a little over 2grand. Still not bad.
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03-18-2013, 05:59 PM
#60
lmao
Id love to hear about all these s2000 guys with K swaps, because there are not very many. Plus, like I mentioned before, I can almost gaurantee that the driving force behind that is that it can be tuned with K-Pro and because it can be bored over when they break ringlands running 20 psi on a basemap.
The F is a better engine, hands down. The only reason anybody thinks otherwise is because theyve been influenced by honda-tech group think.
I remember when a large portion of the Honda community though the K series was trash, because when it came out it was quite lame, but also because it was different and because it couldn't be tuned with a trusty chipped OBD-I ECU.
Id love to hear about all these s2000 guys with K swaps, because there are not very many. Plus, like I mentioned before, I can almost gaurantee that the driving force behind that is that it can be tuned with K-Pro and because it can be bored over when they break ringlands running 20 psi on a basemap.
The F is a better engine, hands down. The only reason anybody thinks otherwise is because theyve been influenced by honda-tech group think.
I remember when a large portion of the Honda community though the K series was trash, because when it came out it was quite lame, but also because it was different and because it couldn't be tuned with a trusty chipped OBD-I ECU.
It is not uncommon for guys to be making 500whp + on stock internals with just 3mm head gasket and head studs. 700whp+ on ethanol.
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