No Oil Pressure
12-14-2010, 12:28 PM
#21
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I had no issue witht he subframe bolts. The 4 near the back were covered in factory undercoating. The two on each side near the control arms broke free with no drama as well. I live in the mid-atlantic area; the local DOT loves their salt.
To take the subframe out you have to remove:
swaybar
lower shock bolt
calipers (let them hang off the shock)
steering rack
motor mounts
subframe (support the trans with a jack before you drop the subframe)
I did this on the ground with the help of a friend. Removal took 4 hours, installation took another 5 or so while tidying up some things and bleeding the brakes (unrelated). Both ways were done with copious amounts of alcohol
To take the subframe out you have to remove:
swaybar
lower shock bolt
calipers (let them hang off the shock)
steering rack
motor mounts
subframe (support the trans with a jack before you drop the subframe)
I did this on the ground with the help of a friend. Removal took 4 hours, installation took another 5 or so while tidying up some things and bleeding the brakes (unrelated). Both ways were done with copious amounts of alcohol
I'll keep updating things
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12-16-2010, 05:47 PM
#22
Borrow a little air pig from a friend last night. Filled the Oil feed line with some thick oil and shot 100psi down it a few times.... no luck... Looks like this is unavoidable.
Another question if anyone is listening though. Can I lift engine enough with the top of transmission attached to take off oil pan????
Another question if anyone is listening though. Can I lift engine enough with the top of transmission attached to take off oil pan????
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12-18-2010, 11:06 AM
#24
just pull the whole assembly dude its way easier to get everything right when it is out of the car. Laying on your back while the motor is suspended over you head on some chains sucks and is definatley not safe. You can keep on ******* around and end up taking 20 times longer doing more work or you can just man up and do the ****. buy a new pump while you are at it.
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12-18-2010, 12:08 PM
#25
I pulled and replaced mine no fewer than 3 times during my rebuild....
....I'm getting really good at it now....
....I would still rather put my hand on the ground and have someone hit it as hard as they can with a sledgehammer
It sucks, but believe me, when you get to the point where you aren't worried about **** breaking every trip you make, it's a satisfying feeling.
....I'm getting really good at it now....
....I would still rather put my hand on the ground and have someone hit it as hard as they can with a sledgehammer
It sucks, but believe me, when you get to the point where you aren't worried about **** breaking every trip you make, it's a satisfying feeling.
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03-15-2011, 08:44 AM
#27
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HOLY **** ITS AN UPDATE!!
OK...I dropped my subframe, moved the alternator, PS pump and AC pump/bracket. Then a pulled the oil pump.
I've attached pictures BUT to make a long story short. Everything looks A1.
My pickup tube seemed to be attached and fairly tight and not clogged, the relief valve is firm at the end of the pump and moves nicely. My oil pump gears are also looking great and move nicely.
WHY THE HELL DIDN'T I HAVE OIL PRESSURE THEN?!?!?!?!?!?!?
To make things worse... my crank looks like it might be slightly cooked. There is rainbow discolouration around cyl #3 main and rod cap bearing.
Anyways, I've attached the pics and Crank and 2 of the oil pump showing relief valve and gears.
PLEASE HELP, not gonna lie......I'm thinking of making an epic part-out thread right now.
I'll go out and try to measure everything I can.
OK...I dropped my subframe, moved the alternator, PS pump and AC pump/bracket. Then a pulled the oil pump.
I've attached pictures BUT to make a long story short. Everything looks A1.
My pickup tube seemed to be attached and fairly tight and not clogged, the relief valve is firm at the end of the pump and moves nicely. My oil pump gears are also looking great and move nicely.
WHY THE HELL DIDN'T I HAVE OIL PRESSURE THEN?!?!?!?!?!?!?
To make things worse... my crank looks like it might be slightly cooked. There is rainbow discolouration around cyl #3 main and rod cap bearing.
Anyways, I've attached the pics and Crank and 2 of the oil pump showing relief valve and gears.
PLEASE HELP, not gonna lie......I'm thinking of making an epic part-out thread right now.
I'll go out and try to measure everything I can.
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03-15-2011, 11:31 AM
#28
So I've seen this before as well. It may or may not be the problem, but this is my strongest guess...
I sold a set of gears to a guy who was having his motor assembled in Indianapolis, allegedly these people made F1 engines that won races from lego blocks or whatever. So they were infallible... The gears all say that they are drop in, but I tell people to check them against their housing anyways. This makes sure people put them in the right year of housing, and that the housing is not worn. The shop said they did check it in the housing, and they bolted the pump up to the block filling it with an assembly lube as they went. The assembly lube acts as a super primer, your tolerance in your oil pump could be off by an 1/8th inch and it would prime and pump (no really verified!)
What had happened is that they inserted my oil pump gears into the wrong style of housing, so they were literally nearly .1 inches of clearance. They alleged that they had tested the gears in another housing and then switched them into this better housing for final assembly(right...). The heavy assembly oil got things siphoned up the tube, and got the oil flowing. Once the oil is up in the gears the viscosity of the oil itself is strong enough to create the seal and keep it working. Once you turn the vehicle off and drain it of all oil the air doesn't have enough viscosity to suck the oil up the tube again. These means the pump never primes, so you get the infamous one shot wonder oil pump. You could verify this by putting your Miata on a steep inbankment and letting the oil flow down onto the oil pump and then turning the engine on. This should properly prime it for operation and it will work again.
So what I would do is go in and check the width clearance in the housing. Width clearance should be less then or equal to .06 (manual says .055 but .06 is fine) Radial and tip clearance are important, but only for total oil flow not for menial pumping and priming operation. Besides if there was something wrong with those clearances you would see it!
Thats my best guess, break out the plastigauge!
I sold a set of gears to a guy who was having his motor assembled in Indianapolis, allegedly these people made F1 engines that won races from lego blocks or whatever. So they were infallible... The gears all say that they are drop in, but I tell people to check them against their housing anyways. This makes sure people put them in the right year of housing, and that the housing is not worn. The shop said they did check it in the housing, and they bolted the pump up to the block filling it with an assembly lube as they went. The assembly lube acts as a super primer, your tolerance in your oil pump could be off by an 1/8th inch and it would prime and pump (no really verified!)
What had happened is that they inserted my oil pump gears into the wrong style of housing, so they were literally nearly .1 inches of clearance. They alleged that they had tested the gears in another housing and then switched them into this better housing for final assembly(right...). The heavy assembly oil got things siphoned up the tube, and got the oil flowing. Once the oil is up in the gears the viscosity of the oil itself is strong enough to create the seal and keep it working. Once you turn the vehicle off and drain it of all oil the air doesn't have enough viscosity to suck the oil up the tube again. These means the pump never primes, so you get the infamous one shot wonder oil pump. You could verify this by putting your Miata on a steep inbankment and letting the oil flow down onto the oil pump and then turning the engine on. This should properly prime it for operation and it will work again.
So what I would do is go in and check the width clearance in the housing. Width clearance should be less then or equal to .06 (manual says .055 but .06 is fine) Radial and tip clearance are important, but only for total oil flow not for menial pumping and priming operation. Besides if there was something wrong with those clearances you would see it!
Thats my best guess, break out the plastigauge!
HOLY **** ITS AN UPDATE!!
OK...I dropped my subframe, moved the alternator, PS pump and AC pump/bracket. Then a pulled the oil pump.
I've attached pictures BUT to make a long story short. Everything looks A1.
My pickup tube seemed to be attached and fairly tight and not clogged, the relief valve is firm at the end of the pump and moves nicely. My oil pump gears are also looking great and move nicely.
WHY THE HELL DIDN'T I HAVE OIL PRESSURE THEN?!?!?!?!?!?!?
To make things worse... my crank looks like it might be slightly cooked. There is rainbow discolouration around cyl #3 main and rod cap bearing.
Anyways, I've attached the pics and Crank and 2 of the oil pump showing relief valve and gears.
PLEASE HELP, not gonna lie......I'm thinking of making an epic part-out thread right now.
I'll go out and try to measure everything I can.
OK...I dropped my subframe, moved the alternator, PS pump and AC pump/bracket. Then a pulled the oil pump.
I've attached pictures BUT to make a long story short. Everything looks A1.
My pickup tube seemed to be attached and fairly tight and not clogged, the relief valve is firm at the end of the pump and moves nicely. My oil pump gears are also looking great and move nicely.
WHY THE HELL DIDN'T I HAVE OIL PRESSURE THEN?!?!?!?!?!?!?
To make things worse... my crank looks like it might be slightly cooked. There is rainbow discolouration around cyl #3 main and rod cap bearing.
Anyways, I've attached the pics and Crank and 2 of the oil pump showing relief valve and gears.
PLEASE HELP, not gonna lie......I'm thinking of making an epic part-out thread right now.
I'll go out and try to measure everything I can.
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03-15-2011, 11:38 AM
#29
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Thats a good story...but this is a 100% stock unmodified pump. Hell...the cover has never been off the gears until yesterday when I went at it.
Anyone ever see the oil galley in the block clogged??? likey/not likely???
I'm replacing the pump anyway at this point...I would hate this not to be the problem. Definately cranking the engine before I put up subframe too and everything too, just to be safe.
Anyone ever see the oil galley in the block clogged??? likey/not likely???
I'm replacing the pump anyway at this point...I would hate this not to be the problem. Definately cranking the engine before I put up subframe too and everything too, just to be safe.
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03-15-2011, 11:52 AM
#30
The moral to the story is that if the side clearance is too wide the pump will only prime and pump once. Stock pumps have worn to more then .08 from normal operation in 30,000 miles. There is no guarantee your stock pump isn't out of spec.
There are very few things that can happen with no oil pressure.
Large leak post pump(and by that I mean you forgot to put an oil filter on)
Clogged pre filter screen
Improper pickup tube fastening
Improper clearances in oil pump
Relief valve in the full open position
Low fluid level
If there was a blockage down stream of the pump the oil pressure would be extremely high.
There are very few things that can happen with no oil pressure.
Large leak post pump(and by that I mean you forgot to put an oil filter on)
Clogged pre filter screen
Improper pickup tube fastening
Improper clearances in oil pump
Relief valve in the full open position
Low fluid level
If there was a blockage down stream of the pump the oil pressure would be extremely high.
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03-15-2011, 12:01 PM
#33
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Well I'm not going to mess with it...buying new pump and pick-up tube....
Now for those 2 pictures with rainbows on them....Why would the crank have discolouration and not the rod and bearing cap itself? Could i have overlooked this when I assembled the engine to begin with??
Now for those 2 pictures with rainbows on them....Why would the crank have discolouration and not the rod and bearing cap itself? Could i have overlooked this when I assembled the engine to begin with??
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03-15-2011, 12:06 PM
#34
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Clogged pre filter screen - Checked, not clogged
Improper pickup tube fastening - Checked, nice and tight
Improper clearances in oil pump - NOT checked
Relief valve in the full open position - Checked, see pic.
Low fluid level - Checked, not low...added more after no oil pressure and overfilled just to be sure.
I guess clearances in the pump is the only thing left... and I don't know anything about measuring... when I get pump, I throw it in...that is all.
Improper pickup tube fastening - Checked, nice and tight
Improper clearances in oil pump - NOT checked
Relief valve in the full open position - Checked, see pic.
Low fluid level - Checked, not low...added more after no oil pressure and overfilled just to be sure.
I guess clearances in the pump is the only thing left... and I don't know anything about measuring... when I get pump, I throw it in...that is all.
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03-15-2011, 12:13 PM
#36
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Now pm me back
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03-15-2011, 12:24 PM
#37
Did you actually take apart the relief valve? The picture that you took is the bottom of the relief assembly and pressing in that area does not mean anything. In your second picture, the hole on the bottom right by the outer gear, you should see the plunger there. I.e. that hole should be fully blocked by the plunger. Is it?
--Ferdi
--Ferdi
Last edited by ftjandra; 03-15-2011 at 12:42 PM.
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03-15-2011, 12:45 PM
#38
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Did you actually take apart the relief valve? The picture that you took is the bottom of the relief assembly and pressing in that area does not mean anything. In your second picture, the hole on the bottom right by the outer gear, you should see the plunger there. I.e. that hole should be fully blocked by the plunger. Is it?
--Ferdi
--Ferdi
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