Miata specific fabrication info
12-23-2013, 05:04 PM
#21
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to the last question:
From the time I have been in the Miata scene- its follow the leader.
Read back threads to about 4-5 years ago. You will see everyone saying "cast manifolds if you want reliability" go about 3-4 years ago from now and you will see Turbotim offering tubular manifolds and everyone went to that, then Vband manifolds were cool around then because no hardware failures, then people with bolted turbos upgraded to Inconel hardware, etc... its a really trendy car scene.
From the time I have been in the Miata scene- its follow the leader.
Read back threads to about 4-5 years ago. You will see everyone saying "cast manifolds if you want reliability" go about 3-4 years ago from now and you will see Turbotim offering tubular manifolds and everyone went to that, then Vband manifolds were cool around then because no hardware failures, then people with bolted turbos upgraded to Inconel hardware, etc... its a really trendy car scene.
As Lars said, many of those failure points are specific to a subset of enthusiasts: roadcourse guys with turbo Miatas. There happen to be a decent number on this board, or those aspiring to hit roadcourses once their projects are built, so taking the lessons learned from other people is not being trendy.
It's being smart and profiting from their R&D hours and dollars.
Thanks, Trey, Sav, et al.
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12-24-2013, 11:29 AM
#23
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What you just described is the evolution of R&D. Failure points - and then solutions - were found as the situations developed.
As Lars said, many of those failure points are specific to a subset of enthusiasts: roadcourse guys with turbo Miatas. There happen to be a decent number on this board, or those aspiring to hit roadcourses once their projects are built, so taking the lessons learned from other people is not being trendy.
It's being smart and profiting from their R&D hours and dollars.
Thanks, Trey, Sav, et al.
As Lars said, many of those failure points are specific to a subset of enthusiasts: roadcourse guys with turbo Miatas. There happen to be a decent number on this board, or those aspiring to hit roadcourses once their projects are built, so taking the lessons learned from other people is not being trendy.
It's being smart and profiting from their R&D hours and dollars.
Thanks, Trey, Sav, et al.
Not a big deal either way, I just notice here (like the op mentioned) that people seem to be really pushing certain things. Evolution happens, but the way it gets preached here (Miata world) is amusing.
In my postings here im not trying to point fingers at people like I may have done mentioning TurboTim and his manifold systems, I was just mentioning trends I have seen here in my time. His stuff when he made it seemed to work well, the design is neat and innovative.
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12-24-2013, 12:43 PM
#24
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While this is true, the solutions here (Miata world) are usually grossly overplayed. Cast manifolds for example. It was said back a few years ago that it was the only solution that would work- every tubular manifold ever would make you crash and die in a firey mess of molten Miata. Where the rest of the world is doing them (including people with Miata that don't read forums for basic information because they know their ****).
The default recommendations come from the perspective of a fast roadcourse package of man and machine. That last part needs some further explanation even though it has been discussed before.
You can take a setup that will perform just fine on the street and put it on the track with a mediocre driver, and chances are it will hold up well for a good while.
You can take that same exact setup - which is perfectly suited for a street car or a car that sees infrequent track time with a slow driver - and give it to a fastish driver who sees a lot of seat time and the same exact setup will be woefully inadequate in terms of reliability.
When your manifold cracks or your studs back out on the way to work or home from the gym, that's a significant inconvenience.
When that happens 20 minutes into your Saturday at an HPDE or TT weekend, that's a much bigger problem. This lends itself to overkill being preferable to "probably adequate."
If there is a "trend" aspect to that, I would think it's because there are plenty of people on here who aren't fast roadcourse guys now but aspire to be so. To them, it makes sense to overbuild something with the intent of growing into it.
Worse case scenario, if you overbuild a setup, you end up spending more money on something heavier duty than you need. The flip side is, you try to buy something that is "probably adequate" and it turns out it isn't, you end up having to replace that setup and miss out on track time that you don't get refunded for.
Your exposure might be different because you live in America's Hat and there may not be the same level of roadcourse participation at the same level up there. If 99% of your customer base is street-oriented or leisurely HPDE participants, then the "overkill recipe" probably seems ridiculous.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I have no idea what I am talking about because I have seen no data presented in terms of requested and available setups, etc. Maybe we are both talking anecdotes out our respective asses.
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12-24-2013, 01:05 PM
#25
It just makes sense to over build something rather then walk the line. Especially when you are going to make the engine pump out two times the amount of power as before.
We are also a community of fellows that don't want to see a part out thread a week later after "I ALLOFIT'ed my Miata it's awesome" in some cases.. in others we want your EFRs and other awesome sex parts.
Either way, it's your car your build.
We are also a community of fellows that don't want to see a part out thread a week later after "I ALLOFIT'ed my Miata it's awesome" in some cases.. in others we want your EFRs and other awesome sex parts.
Either way, it's your car your build.
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12-24-2013, 01:24 PM
#27
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Like I said, there is trends in the Miata scene... its not because the other systems are unreliable- but that's how it is portrayed.
A well built setup is a well built setup. The fact is that overbuilding is overbuilding and regardless of use if its overbuilt you are either wasting money or adding complexity to things that don't need to be overthought.
Im sure this will cause a shitstorm with the way that people here think... but its similar to swirling a manifold pipe all over adding 3 or 4 elbows to gain 3" of length to one of the runners to get equal length on a turbo manifold. Its not beneficial for performance and doesn't help with the tight constraints you have on an inline 4 engine. THAT is overbuilding.
Fixing an issue like studs backing out is for the most part an installation error or using cheap hardware from the parts bin at a local "lowes racing" store. You don't need unobtanium Incolnel bolts.
Next time you install an incolnel stud kit, use the nuts and locking hardware that they provide with them on a normal stud. 100% chance that high grade studs will be fine with proper locking hardware... THAT (incolnel stud) is overbuilding.
A well built setup is a well built setup. The fact is that overbuilding is overbuilding and regardless of use if its overbuilt you are either wasting money or adding complexity to things that don't need to be overthought.
Im sure this will cause a shitstorm with the way that people here think... but its similar to swirling a manifold pipe all over adding 3 or 4 elbows to gain 3" of length to one of the runners to get equal length on a turbo manifold. Its not beneficial for performance and doesn't help with the tight constraints you have on an inline 4 engine. THAT is overbuilding.
Fixing an issue like studs backing out is for the most part an installation error or using cheap hardware from the parts bin at a local "lowes racing" store. You don't need unobtanium Incolnel bolts.
Next time you install an incolnel stud kit, use the nuts and locking hardware that they provide with them on a normal stud. 100% chance that high grade studs will be fine with proper locking hardware... THAT (incolnel stud) is overbuilding.
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12-24-2013, 01:35 PM
#28
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I ran a standard Begi S3 setup for nearly 3 years with no problems related to their kit. I only upgraded to V-Bands because I wanted to be future proof for the track. Scrappy_Jack hits the point on the head, I will gladly pay more to have things over built, to prevent the loss of track time.
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12-24-2013, 01:38 PM
#29
Inconel studs. Almost every OEM turbo car uses them. They cost $6 each. How is that even expensive and over building? I am for using OEM level or better components when I do things. OEM nissan inconel studs and OEM style copper stoffer nuts is whats holding my turbo setup together. I also dont run 6 seconds under the spec miata lap record at any track though so I'm not doing what the stretchy studs people are doing.
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12-24-2013, 01:56 PM
#31
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Inconel studs. Almost every OEM turbo car uses them. They cost $6 each. How is that even expensive and over building? I am for using OEM level or better components when I do things. OEM nissan inconel studs and OEM style copper stoffer nuts is whats holding my turbo setup together. I also dont run 6 seconds under the spec miata lap record at any track though so I'm not doing what the stretchy studs people are doing.
Part of the whole problem is just the frame of reference that people have. Its easy to get the knowledge now as all the R&D has been done. When Hustler was on the side of the track multiple weekends over stretched studs costing him thousands in lost track time, spending an extra $150 on studs does not seem like a bad investment.
I do agree that for 95% of the miataturbo population that the standard Begi/FM setups are more then fine. Most people will not have the problems that get talked about a lot.
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12-24-2013, 02:20 PM
#33
While this is true, the solutions here (Miata world) are usually grossly overplayed. Cast manifolds for example. It was said back a few years ago that it was the only solution that would work- every tubular manifold ever would make you crash and die in a firey mess of molten Miata. Where the rest of the world is doing them (including people with Miata that don't read forums for basic information because they know their ****)
You're joking right? How many miata track manifolds have you built so far to say ANYTHING about whether they'll crack or not?
Not a big deal either way, I just notice here (like the op mentioned) that people seem to be really pushing certain things. Evolution happens, but the way it gets preached here (Miata world) is amusing.
What's more amusing is you preaching all sorts of bs without actually doing anything on a track miata yet. Again, how many miata manifolds have you built that lasted more than 1 season driven aggressively on track?
In my postings here im not trying to point fingers at people like I may have done mentioning TurboTim and his manifold systems, I was just mentioning trends I have seen here in my time. His stuff when he made it seemed to work well, the design is neat and innovative.
You're joking right? How many miata track manifolds have you built so far to say ANYTHING about whether they'll crack or not?
Not a big deal either way, I just notice here (like the op mentioned) that people seem to be really pushing certain things. Evolution happens, but the way it gets preached here (Miata world) is amusing.
What's more amusing is you preaching all sorts of bs without actually doing anything on a track miata yet. Again, how many miata manifolds have you built that lasted more than 1 season driven aggressively on track?
In my postings here im not trying to point fingers at people like I may have done mentioning TurboTim and his manifold systems, I was just mentioning trends I have seen here in my time. His stuff when he made it seemed to work well, the design is neat and innovative.
Like I said, there is trends in the Miata scene... its not because the other systems are unreliable- but that's how it is portrayed.
A well built setup is a well built setup. The fact is that overbuilding is overbuilding and regardless of use if its overbuilt you are either wasting money or adding complexity to things that don't need to be overthought.
Im sure this will cause a shitstorm with the way that people here think... but its similar to swirling a manifold pipe all over adding 3 or 4 elbows to gain 3" of length to one of the runners to get equal length on a turbo manifold. Its not beneficial for performance and doesn't help with the tight constraints you have on an inline 4 engine. THAT is overbuilding.
You're a moron. Plain and simple. They're not overbuilding cause they've nothing better to do, or because they just feel like adding complexity. They're overbuilding because the products crack and break otherwise. Again, how many miata track manifolds have you made to say anything at all?
Fixing an issue like studs backing out is for the most part an installation error or using cheap hardware from the parts bin at a local "lowes racing" store. You don't need unobtanium Incolnel bolts.
Next time you install an incolnel stud kit, use the nuts and locking hardware that they provide with them on a normal stud. 100% chance that high grade studs will be fine with proper locking hardware... THAT (incolnel stud) is overbuilding.
A well built setup is a well built setup. The fact is that overbuilding is overbuilding and regardless of use if its overbuilt you are either wasting money or adding complexity to things that don't need to be overthought.
Im sure this will cause a shitstorm with the way that people here think... but its similar to swirling a manifold pipe all over adding 3 or 4 elbows to gain 3" of length to one of the runners to get equal length on a turbo manifold. Its not beneficial for performance and doesn't help with the tight constraints you have on an inline 4 engine. THAT is overbuilding.
You're a moron. Plain and simple. They're not overbuilding cause they've nothing better to do, or because they just feel like adding complexity. They're overbuilding because the products crack and break otherwise. Again, how many miata track manifolds have you made to say anything at all?
Fixing an issue like studs backing out is for the most part an installation error or using cheap hardware from the parts bin at a local "lowes racing" store. You don't need unobtanium Incolnel bolts.
Next time you install an incolnel stud kit, use the nuts and locking hardware that they provide with them on a normal stud. 100% chance that high grade studs will be fine with proper locking hardware... THAT (incolnel stud) is overbuilding.
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12-24-2013, 02:23 PM
#34
You do realize we have something like a 100 page thread spread over a good long time proving that what you just said is false. What you just stated about shows that you do not understand the underlying problem that was trying to be solved. The studs were stretching, no amount of "locking hardware" will prevent that. Savington went down that path with many different studs and had them all stretch.
I ran a standard Begi S3 setup for nearly 3 years with no problems related to their kit. I only upgraded to V-Bands because I wanted to be future proof for the track. Scrappy_Jack hits the point on the head, I will gladly pay more to have things over built, to prevent the loss of track time.
I ran a standard Begi S3 setup for nearly 3 years with no problems related to their kit. I only upgraded to V-Bands because I wanted to be future proof for the track. Scrappy_Jack hits the point on the head, I will gladly pay more to have things over built, to prevent the loss of track time.
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12-24-2013, 02:26 PM
#35
Go back to 2008-2009 when the issue first came up. You would have been a godsend if you could have gotten us part numbers then. At that time no one had them or knew were to get them cheaply.
Part of the whole problem is just the frame of reference that people have. Its easy to get the knowledge now as all the R&D has been done. When Hustler was on the side of the track multiple weekends over stretched studs costing him thousands in lost track time, spending an extra $150 on studs does not seem like a bad investment.
I do agree that for 95% of the miataturbo population that the standard Begi/FM setups are more then fine. Most people will not have the problems that get talked about a lot.
Part of the whole problem is just the frame of reference that people have. Its easy to get the knowledge now as all the R&D has been done. When Hustler was on the side of the track multiple weekends over stretched studs costing him thousands in lost track time, spending an extra $150 on studs does not seem like a bad investment.
I do agree that for 95% of the miataturbo population that the standard Begi/FM setups are more then fine. Most people will not have the problems that get talked about a lot.
By the way, is "hellafab" even paying vendor fee's? No? Hmm, I wonder if that should be re-examined.
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12-24-2013, 02:44 PM
#36
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#1. I did nowhere say anyone was an idiot.
#2. I said that people here follow the leader (trends). I didn't say why they do it.
#3. I have lost touch with people who have some of my early Miata manifolds, but none of them have been back for cracking.
#4. I don't build Miata manifold specifically- I weld whatever people who come to me ask for. I have built a few dozen manifolds for people over the years as a hobby and I only post here what I do as that hobby. I'm not a business trying to market anything, though I have done some Miata work recently. Being that I have my own Miata like to browse here and as such I post pictures here. If me posting welding pictures is a bad thing I can stop- I just like to share my hobby with others to get more insight into design, process and for inspiration.
The point of my commenting was to revive this thread that was so destined to fail about a discussion of why people do things-specific to fabrication that ended up off topic regardless. Think what you like, there are more options for things out there than whats available for us.
#2. I said that people here follow the leader (trends). I didn't say why they do it.
#3. I have lost touch with people who have some of my early Miata manifolds, but none of them have been back for cracking.
#4. I don't build Miata manifold specifically- I weld whatever people who come to me ask for. I have built a few dozen manifolds for people over the years as a hobby and I only post here what I do as that hobby. I'm not a business trying to market anything, though I have done some Miata work recently. Being that I have my own Miata like to browse here and as such I post pictures here. If me posting welding pictures is a bad thing I can stop- I just like to share my hobby with others to get more insight into design, process and for inspiration.
The point of my commenting was to revive this thread that was so destined to fail about a discussion of why people do things-specific to fabrication that ended up off topic regardless. Think what you like, there are more options for things out there than whats available for us.
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12-24-2013, 02:51 PM
#37
Look I'm gonna be honest with you: I actually enjoy looking at your fabrication pictures, and I think fabrication discussions are great, but I think its extremely disrespectful for you to discount all the efforts of prior fabricators and racers here by calling their work unnecessary and overcomplicated, and that they could avoid all that by properly installing and welding their manifolds.......As if you have some crazy new awesome solution to all the problems encountered on turbo miata's at the track, and everyone else has been "doin it wrong".
Anyone can make a manifold for the street. Race track is a completely different ball game though.
Anyone can make a manifold for the street. Race track is a completely different ball game though.
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12-24-2013, 03:09 PM
#38
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Look I'm gonna be honest with you: I actually enjoy looking at your fabrication pictures, and I think fabrication discussions are great, but I think its extremely disrespectful for you to discount all the efforts of prior fabricators and racers here by calling their work unnecessary and overcomplicated, and that they could avoid all that by properly installing and welding their manifolds.......As if you have some crazy new awesome solution to all the problems encountered on turbo miata's at the track, and everyone else has been "doin it wrong".
Anyone can make a manifold for the street. Race track is a completely different ball game though.
Anyone can make a manifold for the street. Race track is a completely different ball game though.
Understood.
I have my views on what is a worthwhile modification and what is overbuilding; which I believe is the purpose of this thread. I didn't say they were wrong or that it didn't work-to discount them in being that they have a proven product. I knew that mentioning my thoughts on overbuilding would stir up some dust, but its just my educated opinion. Me saying that wont change who does what and for what reasons, and people will still want what they want (which is usually a trendy thing when it comes to discussion boards)
I do some things differently than others with my fabrication but I don't want to get into it because I'm not advertising.
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12-24-2013, 06:04 PM
#39
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I have my views on what is a worthwhile modification and what is overbuilding; which I believe is the purpose of this thread. I didn't say they were wrong or that it didn't work-to discount them in being that they have a proven product. I knew that mentioning my thoughts on overbuilding would stir up some dust, but its just my educated opinion. Me saying that wont change who does what and for what reasons, and people will still want what they want (which is usually a trendy thing when it comes to discussion boards)
I also hope your opinion is educated by experience building stuff that is used on cars that run several seconds under Spec Miata lap records.
In case that is too subtle, I am making the point that you may have zero experience that is specifically applicable to the demographic I keep referencing (fast road course guys).
On the other hand, in my professional life I make it a point to challenge my assumptions and to try very hard not to take stake in ideological perspectives so I really, genuinely am open to being proven wrong.
But, considering the number of Formula 1 and WRC manifold pictures that get tossed around on this site, I would be very surprised if there is something being done with other marquees or in other geographic locales that has not been considered here.
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12-24-2013, 08:27 PM
#40
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Anyone who can weld can build something that can make 200whp on the street for highway onramp pulls.
Come back when you have setups which both make massive power, and survive half a dozen events of 6x30min sessions in a row without needing to lift the bonnet.
What is being constantly said, and I am just reminding again, is that the serious Miata guys are running Porsche GT2 and GT3 times, for an hour straight.
They are NOT running 10 seconds at a time or 3/4/5th on the highway.
Dann
Come back when you have setups which both make massive power, and survive half a dozen events of 6x30min sessions in a row without needing to lift the bonnet.
What is being constantly said, and I am just reminding again, is that the serious Miata guys are running Porsche GT2 and GT3 times, for an hour straight.
They are NOT running 10 seconds at a time or 3/4/5th on the highway.
Dann
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