Braineack

iTrader: (62)

If someone gave you this chart and told you this is how these shocks compare on the dyno, what would this really give away?



I'm thinking about moving from my konis to the bilstiens on my 550/300 combo or 400/250. Currently the Konis are harsh and jack down on the heavier rates, with FM springs they would okay, but still always felt "stiff" when driving, I believe it's due to the high rebound and jacking down effect. So I picked up the 400/250 rate springs to be in the middle of my FM springs prior. It seems to be written these bilstiens can handle 450/300 rates without valving and ride smoother and work better than konis, but I'm trying to see how each of these compare since it seems they have opposite characteristics in relation to compression and rebound. Any expert advice?

y8s

iTrader: (8)

comparison!



not sure if the sign convention is the same.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

Also, any reason some charts label compression and rebound reverse from others?

Like the chart you posted is in reverse. I used one provided from koni, I know the rebound is on the top because the konis only adjust rebound.

I took the Bilstiens from here:






the konis:http://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment...chmentid=10097

hustler

iTrader: (6)

I know how to read those, but still don't know what's good and what's bad.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

Exactly. It seems the Konis have far superior rebound at low and high speeds when adjusted full stiff. And they also match the Bilstiens at low-speed bump (bilsteins have a slight advantage at 2-3 in/sec) but have far more mid/high bump. Beyond that... I'm not sure what I'm looking for out of a shock.

Here's what I dont like about my konis: With 550/330 springs (I know a little much for the valving, so I read) they handle great when I'm out fooling around or when I've autoxed on the setup far better than the FM springs. Driving on the highway is smooth and precise. However, I have to avoid potholes or any other impurities like a devote Christian. I tend to brace myself before I'm about to hit something. It's harsh, and I believe due to the high rebound I don't glide over holes the wheel is forced down into them. This probably makes them a great autoxing shock on smooth pavement to get ultimate grip.

I can almost handle the harshness, but for how the rear reacts. On FM springs it always felt smooth, a bit stiff driving, but not like a blown stock suspension. When I hit dips in the road the rear end feels like it's going to skip and I have the launching effect in my butt where I feel like I'm going to get thrown out of the car. I don't like this. I notice it the most when going over speed bumps, I drive over them fine, but when the rears start to roll down off them, I feel like they catapult me upwards. I don't like this.

I just recently purchased new NB tophats for the Front, ISC Racing Tophats for the Rear, and 400/250 springs. I figured these springs would but me in the middle of the 318/233 FM combo and the 550/300 current combo and be more within the Koni's valving.

I have the opportunity to purchase a set of '99 bilstiens and would most likely get them valved. I'm not sure it's worth the investment or if it'll benefit from them. I hear people ranting and raving about the FCM bilstein valving and how comfortable the ride can be with heavier spring rates. This is what I ultimately want, but do not understand why exactly the bilstein can do this when I look at the dynos and don't really see what gives it away.

Once I swap the new spring in I'll probably be done with it, I've driven a few CG/Koni setups (375/250) and it felt like it drove well enough. I've taken a few steps recently into downgrading some performance parts to make the car a more comfortable street DD vehicle, but I still want it to perform very well when I do get out to the track or autox. And since I'm a big jew face it's hard for me to justify spending money on old shocks when I have 4 that still work

y8s

iTrader: (8)

pay attention to the steepness of the line

the velocity of the shaft--knowing that below ~3-5 in/sec is handling and response and above 5-6 ips is ride comfort and traction.

this is why most shocks are steep on the left and shallower on the right. having a linear shock means you have SUPER stiff ride over bumps OR soft handling like a caddy.

moving that "elbow" to the right increases the performance threshold while sacrificing ride comfort and potentially traction over rough surfaces.

rebound tends to mostly address spring rate.

bump tends to mostly address responsiveness and ride quality.

miatauser884

iTrader: (11)

^^^This

What setup will provide comrotable DD, but allow you to remain competitive at a DE if you were up against a well sorted miata?

DO we hav any vendors that could get us a group buy on the bilsteins? The we could try to talk stewart development into a slight group revalve discount. I too, speak jew!

lsc224

iTrader: (13)

I'm in for a group revalve.

miatauser884

iTrader: (11)

stewart development also cells the bilstein shocks for $115.

Maybe we could talk him into a revalved shock group buy for $600 if we got enough people. How can we drum up interest?

I will quit thread jacking now

sbrian2

iTrader: (12)

IMHO, konis are a better choice for a dual purpose track/DD car. You can soften them for the street and stiffen them for the track. Plus you get the ability to tune your car for different conditions. The bilsteins are great shocks and I love the fact that they are monotube vs. twin tube, but not being adjustable kills it for me. The ideal shock is a monotube adjustable in both bump and rebound, but most on here will never pony up for a shock of that caliber. I have them on my E-Stock car and it made all the difference in the world on the track, but they can be turned down to ride very comfortably on the street. You get what you pay for and at almost 4K for a full set they should give you a BJ while you are driving too.

mcarp22

I think you kinda lose that when the springs are stiffer than stock myself. My KYBs only have one setting front/rear that don't completely suck.

rweatherford

Good reading here if you have not seen it...

DGs Autocross Secrets aka Autocross to Win - Shocks

Just a warning that Tein owners will not want to read.....

I have Tokico's and think they are probably crap.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

I read that. still give little to nothing away. doesn't even explain how to read a dyno, but just states over and over they are important. The only good info is his 65% critical dampening number.

SolarYellow510

Nice link. I really like his prescription for tuning your shocks. My Konis were dynoed before installation by a buddy with access to a shock dyno, and they don't match. I run an offset L/R in the adjusters, and it seems to get me reasonably close, by seat of the pants. The DA Konis I had on my BMW also didn't match perfectly L/R, but the car worked friggin' great.

I also strongly agree with his position that once the shocks are tuned, they are tuned. Hard on the track and soft on the street is kinda like camping sober - it just doesn't make any sense.

Brain, some of what you said makes me question it, but I would seriously investigate to what extent you are bottoming out the rear suspension over bigger bumps. Getting my car up off the rear bumpstops made a huge improvement in ride and handling.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

good thing I bought ISC racing tops hats huh?

Chapman

iTrader: (2)

I'll be doing the same thing with mine after they are revalved. Those should really help out. (They look to be painted better than they used to be lol)

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

doesn't mean they are welded better...

SolarYellow510

I do agree with the impact harshness you note. Not sure what the differences are between NA and NB Koni Yellows, but my Miata passes the impacts through a lot more than the BMW did with much higher spring rates. The DAs were adjusted with very little bump rate.

Unsprung weight also makes a huge difference. The 17x8s on my BMW were within 2 lb. of the 15x7.5 Rotas on the Miata, and I always believed that was a huge part of why the car worked so well. Recently picked up a set of 15x7 SSRs locally. Can't wait to get them on.

miatamike203

I can get the Bilstein sport shocks for 90 each front and rear. If we get a lot of people i could talk my wholesaler down easy.

Joe Mauch

I'm looking at bilstein's as well. I've heard nothing but good things about them. The only thing i have to compare bilsteins to would be a friends set of ohlins on his NA, and my stock suspension with 170k miles on it.

Now I'm looking to order a set of Fat Cat Motorsport bilsteins but as always, open to alternatives. Looking at 450/325, which is roughly the same springrate the ohlins run, I just hope they drive as well or better. I understand the advantage of having a non-ajustable coilover, one tuned and dynoed so they all match, but it feels a bit like gambling, i'm glad FCM offers a 60 day return policy.. I just want the car to be more fun and for me, super stiff is not that.

GL with your hunt Braineack, I'll be watching this thread closely, a bilstein sport group buy deal would be sick.