CHRA/turbine bolts relaxing.
02-24-2011, 10:17 PM
#190
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No I could not find the safety wire until you mentioned it. The original title did not say "CHRA". I looked at the pic and saw two humongous bolts with no safety wire. The Safety wire is BLURRY. The photo is over-jpeg-compressed. The two humongous bolts have no safety wire. So I ASKED. And did not get an answer.
Additionally, someone not familiar with the layout of his manifold and turbo would be thoroughly confused by his closeup.
For example, I did NOT know that Tial made turbine housings. When he said Tial, I thought, "wastegate". And, later, I thought "Vband housing" = "the ******* housing is attached to the CHRA by a VBAND. What's all this trouble regarding a ******* Vband bolt??"
I was not following Hustler's troubles carefully. I did not start reading this thread until it was several pages long. I do not want to read every post to try and understand what's going on. I wanted to understand WHICH GODDAM BOLT(S) are loosening. It was NOT CLEAR in his first post.
Let me repeat. When you show photos, you PUT ARROWS if it will prevent several minutes of confusion.
I'm not saying everyone here should do this, or there should be some mt.net rule about arrows. But it's NOT UNREASONABLE to ASK "WHICH ******* BOLT" and at least get an answer like "in the first photo there is an obscure bolt with safety wire that is BLURRY", like you answered, with sarcasm.
Hustler may have lost some opportunity for some readers to offer something helpful if he had put a ******* ARROW or had answered a not unreasonable question (another poster had expressed confusion, not just me).
</rant>
Sorry, I'm pissed because of work, and I'm pissed at the wife too.
Last edited by JasonC SBB; 02-24-2011 at 11:19 PM.
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02-24-2011, 10:18 PM
#191
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Good try but I expect these are your options:
PT doesn't have anyone driving hard enough to kill hardware
PT doesn't think you will drive hard enough to kill hardware
PT turbo won't tell you if they do
PT won't give you consideration.
I'll test the Inco bolts for you. Then you can get the EDM "drilled" and life successfully through my misfortunes.
PT doesn't have anyone driving hard enough to kill hardware
PT doesn't think you will drive hard enough to kill hardware
PT turbo won't tell you if they do
PT won't give you consideration.
I'll test the Inco bolts for you. Then you can get the EDM "drilled" and life successfully through my misfortunes.
I worked directly with PT's owner on a drag engine. Asked him twice for pricing because I wanted to sell his product. Nuttin. You'd think selling their products would be simplier. Tial is only marginally better too. Got through about 4 inconel bolts tonight after work on one $3.50 drill. Niiiice.
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02-24-2011, 10:23 PM
#192
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Some random thoughts.
Maybe Hustler is overtorquing those small M6 bolts and thus pre-stretching them too much, making them more susceptible to creep due to high temperature.
Maybe the combination of CTE's of the materials is such that during thermal transients, they bolts ar expected to lengthen to a point that they creep or yield. In which case, extra spacers under the bolt heads will help.
Vibration - if his manifold positions the turbo farther away from the motor than cast manifolds, then the moment arm is longer, and it will probably vibrate more. Is it farther?
Additionally, vibration would perhaps make the bolts back out - but the safety wire prevent this - so maybe it's not vibration.
But again if indeed vibration is the issue, maybe the additional stress is making the bolts stretch by loading them past the elastic limit - again a higher temp rated bolt may help (but then he used some other high temp bolts), or maybe again, spacers will help, because any stretching due to vibration, occurs over a longer length of bolt.
If vibration were the issue, anyone who can rev the engine through the resonance frequency can break them. You don't need to be a he-man driver like hustler to do it, because hustler's he-mannisms produces high temperatures, not RPMs. IOW if the resonant frequency is say, 6000 RPM, then any pussyfoot who can make the motor sit at 6000 RPM for prolonged periods can shake them loose. High temperatures not necessary.
THEREFORE the problem is either HEAT, or the combo of HEAT AND VIBRATION.
Ergo the solution may involve something like a bolt that handles vibration better at high temperatures.
Which reminds me. Hustler rev the engine in neutral at slowly increasing RPMS. If there is a strong resonance it should show up.
Maybe Hustler is overtorquing those small M6 bolts and thus pre-stretching them too much, making them more susceptible to creep due to high temperature.
Maybe the combination of CTE's of the materials is such that during thermal transients, they bolts ar expected to lengthen to a point that they creep or yield. In which case, extra spacers under the bolt heads will help.
Vibration - if his manifold positions the turbo farther away from the motor than cast manifolds, then the moment arm is longer, and it will probably vibrate more. Is it farther?
Additionally, vibration would perhaps make the bolts back out - but the safety wire prevent this - so maybe it's not vibration.
But again if indeed vibration is the issue, maybe the additional stress is making the bolts stretch by loading them past the elastic limit - again a higher temp rated bolt may help (but then he used some other high temp bolts), or maybe again, spacers will help, because any stretching due to vibration, occurs over a longer length of bolt.
If vibration were the issue, anyone who can rev the engine through the resonance frequency can break them. You don't need to be a he-man driver like hustler to do it, because hustler's he-mannisms produces high temperatures, not RPMs. IOW if the resonant frequency is say, 6000 RPM, then any pussyfoot who can make the motor sit at 6000 RPM for prolonged periods can shake them loose. High temperatures not necessary.
THEREFORE the problem is either HEAT, or the combo of HEAT AND VIBRATION.
Ergo the solution may involve something like a bolt that handles vibration better at high temperatures.
Which reminds me. Hustler rev the engine in neutral at slowly increasing RPMS. If there is a strong resonance it should show up.
Last edited by JasonC SBB; 02-24-2011 at 10:39 PM.
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02-24-2011, 10:26 PM
#193
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I have been making documentation for customers for more than a decade. You don't expect your customer to spend minutes figuring something out that a single arrow would clarify in seconds. YOU PUT THE ARROW IN THE DOCUMENTATION.
No I could not find the safety wire until you mentioned it. The original title did not say "CHRA". I looked at the pic and saw two humongous bolts with no safety wire. The Safety wire is BLURRY. The photo is over-jpeg-compressed. The two humongous bolts have no safety wire. So I ASKED. And did not get an answer.
Additionally, someone not familiar with the layout of his manifold and turbo would be thoroughly confused by his closeup.
For example, I did NOT know that Tial made turbine housings. When he said Tial, I thought, "wastegate". And, later, I thought "Vband housing" = "the ******* housing is attached to the CHRA by a VBAND. What's all this trouble regarding a ******* Vband bolt??"
I was not following Hustler's troubles carefully. I did not start reading this thread until it was several pages long. I do not want to read every post to try and understand what's going on. I wanted to understand WHICH GODDAM BOLT(S) are loosening. It was NOT CLEAR in his first post.
Let me repeat. When you show photos, you PUT ARROWS if it will prevent several minutes of confusion.
I'm not saying everyone here should do this, or there should be some mt.net rule about arrows. But it's NOT UNREASONABLE to ASK "WHICH ******* BOLT" and at least get an answer like "in the first photo there is an obscure bolt with safety wire that is BLURRY", like you answered, with sarcasm.
Hustler may have lost some opportunity for some readers to offer something helpful if he had put a ******* ARROW or had answered a not unreasonable question (another poster had expressed confusion, not just me).
</rant>
Sorry, I'm pissed because of work, and I'm pissed at the wife too.
No I could not find the safety wire until you mentioned it. The original title did not say "CHRA". I looked at the pic and saw two humongous bolts with no safety wire. The Safety wire is BLURRY. The photo is over-jpeg-compressed. The two humongous bolts have no safety wire. So I ASKED. And did not get an answer.
Additionally, someone not familiar with the layout of his manifold and turbo would be thoroughly confused by his closeup.
For example, I did NOT know that Tial made turbine housings. When he said Tial, I thought, "wastegate". And, later, I thought "Vband housing" = "the ******* housing is attached to the CHRA by a VBAND. What's all this trouble regarding a ******* Vband bolt??"
I was not following Hustler's troubles carefully. I did not start reading this thread until it was several pages long. I do not want to read every post to try and understand what's going on. I wanted to understand WHICH GODDAM BOLT(S) are loosening. It was NOT CLEAR in his first post.
Let me repeat. When you show photos, you PUT ARROWS if it will prevent several minutes of confusion.
I'm not saying everyone here should do this, or there should be some mt.net rule about arrows. But it's NOT UNREASONABLE to ASK "WHICH ******* BOLT" and at least get an answer like "in the first photo there is an obscure bolt with safety wire that is BLURRY", like you answered, with sarcasm.
Hustler may have lost some opportunity for some readers to offer something helpful if he had put a ******* ARROW or had answered a not unreasonable question (another poster had expressed confusion, not just me).
</rant>
Sorry, I'm pissed because of work, and I'm pissed at the wife too.
Please take pictures and make simple diagrams with arrows pointing to things you describe but I don't know exist within your fancy threads about electrical gizmos so I can follow your threads without reading every post.
haha
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02-24-2011, 10:36 PM
#194
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Maybe the combination of CTE's of the materials is such that during thermal transients, they bolts ar expected to lengthen to a point that they creep or yield. In which case, extra spacers under the bolt heads will help.
Vibration - if his manifold positions the turbo farther away from the motor than cast manifolds, then the moment arm is longer, and it will probably vibrate more. Is it farther?
Additionally, vibration would perhaps make the bolts back out - but the safety wire prevent this.
If vibration is the issue, maybe the additional stress is making the bolts stretch by loading them past the elastic limit - again a higher temp rated bolt may help (but then he used some other high temp bolts), or maybe again, spacers will help, because any stretching due to vibration, occurs over a longer length of bolt.
If vibration is the issue, maybe the additional stress is making the bolts stretch by loading them past the elastic limit - again a higher temp rated bolt may help (but then he used some other high temp bolts), or maybe again, spacers will help, because any stretching due to vibration, occurs over a longer length of bolt.
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02-24-2011, 10:38 PM
#196
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Completely possible.
ehhh i'm drinking too much to post about this part or think if I'm correct but longer bolts would tend to be better generally like you mention below.
yes his CHRA is further from the engine than a BEGI or FM manifold.
Yes, and his higher temp bolts he tried were not safety wired and vibrated out quickly.
ehhh i'm drinking too much to post about this part or think if I'm correct but longer bolts would tend to be better generally like you mention below.
yes his CHRA is further from the engine than a BEGI or FM manifold.
Yes, and his higher temp bolts he tried were not safety wired and vibrated out quickly.
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02-24-2011, 10:41 PM
#198
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If vibration were the issue, anyone who can rev the engine through the resonance frequency can break them. You don't need to be a he-man driver like hustler to do it, because hustler's he-mannisms produces high temperatures, not RPMs. IOW if the resonant frequency is say, 6000 RPM, then any pussyfoot who can make the motor sit at 6000 RPM for prolonged periods can shake them loose. High temperatures not necessary.
THEREFORE the problem is either HEAT, or the combo of HEAT AND VIBRATION.
Ergo the solution may involve something like a bolt that handles vibration better at high temperatures.
Which reminds me. Hustler rev the engine in neutral at slowly increasing RPMS. If there is a strong resonance it should show up.
THEREFORE the problem is either HEAT, or the combo of HEAT AND VIBRATION.
Ergo the solution may involve something like a bolt that handles vibration better at high temperatures.
Which reminds me. Hustler rev the engine in neutral at slowly increasing RPMS. If there is a strong resonance it should show up.
And don't all of our cars have a wicked harmonic about 5500rpm? obvious when you rev the car in neutral? I hope so or else I'm doing something very wrong.
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