DuAl FeDe fewyl RaILS 4 da WIn?
06-05-2008, 04:05 PM
#82
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I'd certainly be in. Just up to Joe to chime in if he wants the pump or not. I think I have some 55 gph pump on my bike I'm not using. :-) Low pressure though.
I'd be pretty tempted to try feeding it from both ends by making an adapter. It doesn't really look very different from the NB one, functionally it's just a square rail with some holes along it.
Edit: Any chance I could talk you down from $0? Say, maybe, gimmie $15 to take it off your hands?
I'd be pretty tempted to try feeding it from both ends by making an adapter. It doesn't really look very different from the NB one, functionally it's just a square rail with some holes along it.
Edit: Any chance I could talk you down from $0? Say, maybe, gimmie $15 to take it off your hands?
i have a stock and diy dual feed i could probably mail you.
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06-05-2008, 04:10 PM
#83
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That would be beyond baller. PM sending.
As to the prices, I don't think they would go up much. I do think they might go down. Honestly, no one listens to facts. Sure, there might be 5 less sales, certainly of the one that isn't pretty.
But people buy them for looks, and people cover their cars with wings and such for going 20 mph on the street. They are bling, and they don't have to be functional.
And if it proves to help (again, getting a real aftermarket one offered would be awesome, and a test with big enough injectors would hopefully show gains) sales would go up. They wouldn't have to raise prices, they'd make money on volume. If they really sell a lot of them, prices would go down as more people would be making them and there's volume discounts on manufacturing.
As to the prices, I don't think they would go up much. I do think they might go down. Honestly, no one listens to facts. Sure, there might be 5 less sales, certainly of the one that isn't pretty.
But people buy them for looks, and people cover their cars with wings and such for going 20 mph on the street. They are bling, and they don't have to be functional.
And if it proves to help (again, getting a real aftermarket one offered would be awesome, and a test with big enough injectors would hopefully show gains) sales would go up. They wouldn't have to raise prices, they'd make money on volume. If they really sell a lot of them, prices would go down as more people would be making them and there's volume discounts on manufacturing.
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06-05-2008, 04:20 PM
#84
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I still say that we should start with a stock rail, using "reasonable" injectors- no more than 550-650cc. If that test shows unequal flow, then we know this is of concern to "average" users.
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06-05-2008, 04:31 PM
#86
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I have a set of stock injectors, and someone offered some 550's. So even if the 630's don't work out, I'd concider it covered. I'd love to have a set of 1000+'s, but I wouldn't repeat the test just to do that.
600 CC injectors are enough for an easy 400 whp. After 400 whp, the price of a fancy rail (or the work of doing your own test) is justified, since you've got insane amounts of work and money into it already.
This test is for people who've got $400, and want to know if they should get a fuel rail or some AGX's.
I'm hoping to check a '99 returnless system as well, while I'm at it. I've got the pump and regulator (on my car) but I'd rather avoid the work of pulling my rail if someone has one laying around.
600 CC injectors are enough for an easy 400 whp. After 400 whp, the price of a fancy rail (or the work of doing your own test) is justified, since you've got insane amounts of work and money into it already.
This test is for people who've got $400, and want to know if they should get a fuel rail or some AGX's.
I'm hoping to check a '99 returnless system as well, while I'm at it. I've got the pump and regulator (on my car) but I'd rather avoid the work of pulling my rail if someone has one laying around.
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06-05-2008, 04:32 PM
#88
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You know, something just occurred to me. I'll bet with a little creativity and some brass tees, we could put two injectors on each hole. This would permit some different ranges to be achieved (say, 290, 550, and 840) and we could also match over/under sizes to balance out the four pairs. I've got a set of blue-tops here on my desk, I'm gonna use them to try and build an adapter plate that we can bolt to a rail and drive two injectors per hole from.
Does anybody have the exact (and I mean dial-caliper exact) hole spacing of the stock rail?
Does anybody have the exact (and I mean dial-caliper exact) hole spacing of the stock rail?
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06-05-2008, 04:52 PM
#89
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FYI, with Brainiak's hook up on rails (maybe regulator with it) we should be pretty good.
An NB rail, a set of 550's in case the audi ones don't work, and for Joe or Adam or someone with an NA to volenteer use of their fuel pump for the test is all that remains on my wishlist. And a fuel pressure guage, but I think we can kludge one.
There was an offer of a rail and pump, but I guess I only need the pump now. Brainiak has a modded and an unmoded rail.
An NB rail, a set of 550's in case the audi ones don't work, and for Joe or Adam or someone with an NA to volenteer use of their fuel pump for the test is all that remains on my wishlist. And a fuel pressure guage, but I think we can kludge one.
There was an offer of a rail and pump, but I guess I only need the pump now. Brainiak has a modded and an unmoded rail.
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06-09-2008, 08:13 PM
#91
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Isn't it 130? The 99 dollar ones are the competition, baring introductory prices. Which is exactly what I was getting at. If it's something you can show works, and yours is better, you can get the premium. And if not, then it's all eye candy.
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06-11-2008, 06:13 PM
#93
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You know, something just occurred to me. I'll bet with a little creativity and some brass tees, we could put two injectors on each hole. This would permit some different ranges to be achieved (say, 290, 550, and 840) and we could also match over/under sizes to balance out the four pairs. I've got a set of blue-tops here on my desk, I'm gonna use them to try and build an adapter plate that we can bolt to a rail and drive two injectors per hole from.
Does anybody have the exact (and I mean dial-caliper exact) hole spacing of the stock rail?
Does anybody have the exact (and I mean dial-caliper exact) hole spacing of the stock rail?
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07-03-2008, 02:15 AM
#94
Any progress on these tests? I'm still kind of curious of results. I do have a suggestion to make the math easier and the test more accurate. Run each test configuration 4 times and cycle the injectors into each position in the rail. You can then simply add the volume/mass of the fuel from rail port 1-4, each of which has had all four injectors in it. This way if 1 injector is out flowing the rest it will do so on every rail port and equalize the results.
If someone doesn't do this test in the next month I will probably have to grab a spare DB37 and get a new stim (that can do the rpm for wheel decoder code) and run it myself. I'll be able to compare the m-tuned vs stock vs escort GT (smaller rail than miata 1.8 it appears) with 460cc rx7 injectors. I could just run the test with the walboro before I install it.
If someone doesn't do this test in the next month I will probably have to grab a spare DB37 and get a new stim (that can do the rpm for wheel decoder code) and run it myself. I'll be able to compare the m-tuned vs stock vs escort GT (smaller rail than miata 1.8 it appears) with 460cc rx7 injectors. I could just run the test with the walboro before I install it.
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07-07-2008, 02:58 PM
#95
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Teaser Shots
After hassling the girlfriend and encouraging a little 'moral flexibility', I got her to borrow some graduated cylinders from work. Only 50 CC's but I hope it's enough to do the job.
I had all sorts of issues getting them not to leak, but finally got something stable. The injectors Adam lent me, one has a broken pintle, but I'm hoping it'll be ok. Doesn't leak when pressurized.
Needing a return is a new thing for me. Trust gascan seems to catch all that, and I get to listen to the regulator squeaking as it's pressurized. The wiring came out nicely after all that. Does anyone know if there is a polarity to fuel injectors?
The plan is to use the breakout board to run the injectors, the only question is if I want to "run" the motor, at various RPM, to see if there are differences based on pulse waves traveling in the rail (something I'm worried about more than steady state flow which I think it silly), or just to use the "injector output test mode" on the MS-II to pulse all the injectors at the same time.
The advantage to that is I can pulse them a known number of times - exactly 1000 pulses or whatever tickels my fancy. I can set all the variables pretty easy.
The problem with this plan is:
1) I'm doing it all by myself. Kinda boring.
2) I left my stim AND my breakout board at Leo's
3) I used 50 psi line since the real fuel injector line was over $40.
So until Leo shows up with my board....
....She Waits.
(Note that I have holes drilled for the FM rail as well, which is a huge, "dual feed" rail, without regulator. But it's gigantic, so that should answer any questions there. Again, I can't see steady state flows being the issue - it has to come down to low pressure zones (hence all the pulse dampers on the NB) starving cylinders. Seriously, if not for that I imagine the whole dual feed rail business is a joke. :-)
I sure wish there was a pro dual-feed rail local I could check out, but... There you go.
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edit: Details: I have cyl 1/4 and 2/3 paired. It would be interesting to swap them, but I haven't yet. I guess it's how my car is wired so I'm intrested in it. If I get time, I might compare the two. Also, I'm running the fuel right out of my tank with my stock pump. Then I can turn it on and off in software.
I had all sorts of issues getting them not to leak, but finally got something stable. The injectors Adam lent me, one has a broken pintle, but I'm hoping it'll be ok. Doesn't leak when pressurized.
Needing a return is a new thing for me. Trust gascan seems to catch all that, and I get to listen to the regulator squeaking as it's pressurized. The wiring came out nicely after all that. Does anyone know if there is a polarity to fuel injectors?
The plan is to use the breakout board to run the injectors, the only question is if I want to "run" the motor, at various RPM, to see if there are differences based on pulse waves traveling in the rail (something I'm worried about more than steady state flow which I think it silly), or just to use the "injector output test mode" on the MS-II to pulse all the injectors at the same time.
The advantage to that is I can pulse them a known number of times - exactly 1000 pulses or whatever tickels my fancy. I can set all the variables pretty easy.
The problem with this plan is:
1) I'm doing it all by myself. Kinda boring.
2) I left my stim AND my breakout board at Leo's
3) I used 50 psi line since the real fuel injector line was over $40.
So until Leo shows up with my board....
....She Waits.
(Note that I have holes drilled for the FM rail as well, which is a huge, "dual feed" rail, without regulator. But it's gigantic, so that should answer any questions there. Again, I can't see steady state flows being the issue - it has to come down to low pressure zones (hence all the pulse dampers on the NB) starving cylinders. Seriously, if not for that I imagine the whole dual feed rail business is a joke. :-)
I sure wish there was a pro dual-feed rail local I could check out, but... There you go.
---------
edit: Details: I have cyl 1/4 and 2/3 paired. It would be interesting to swap them, but I haven't yet. I guess it's how my car is wired so I'm intrested in it. If I get time, I might compare the two. Also, I'm running the fuel right out of my tank with my stock pump. Then I can turn it on and off in software.
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That's exactly what i was thinking.
07-07-2008, 05:42 PM
#100
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Yes, a substitute fluid would be nice, but.... In the name of Science, I think I'll just deal. Putting it outside would be nice, for sure. I've been toying with the idea of putting a rubber hose on each nipple to keep things from splashing, but... well, not yet.
This was the plate in process
True, this could be so you could see how I drilled it, but really I just wanted a picture that had beer in it so you don't all think I only ever drink diet soda.
FM rail I will use (time permitting) to show the effect of a larger diameter rail
The hole spacing is different here, and I think I'll have to use either my 310's or maybe Albert's 600's in this rail.
Again, you'll note I'm so amazingly heterosexual, I drink beer out of a big mug. Like some sort of beer-guy. And you can see the plate with holes for both rails in it.
This was the plate in process
True, this could be so you could see how I drilled it, but really I just wanted a picture that had beer in it so you don't all think I only ever drink diet soda.
FM rail I will use (time permitting) to show the effect of a larger diameter rail
The hole spacing is different here, and I think I'll have to use either my 310's or maybe Albert's 600's in this rail.
Again, you'll note I'm so amazingly heterosexual, I drink beer out of a big mug. Like some sort of beer-guy. And you can see the plate with holes for both rails in it.
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