miataturbo.net-like debauchery thread (about the ND or something) - Page 101 - Miata Turbo Forum -Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 11-18-2015, 06:28 PM   #2001
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I like the white one pictured above, but I think Y8s nailed it -- it looks better because you can't actually see the odd proportions.

I think the Miata is far, far better looking, but i'm really glad some people like the look of the Fiat.

There's room for both in the market place, and for neither in my current garage.
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Old 11-18-2015, 06:29 PM   #2002
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Geoff,

I have the same problem with the crease on the ND's rear quarter panel
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Old 11-18-2015, 07:26 PM   #2003
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I think the Miata is far, far better looking,
+1

But yeah, like you said, the "twins" theme companies are starting to adopt is purdy cool
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Old 11-18-2015, 07:52 PM   #2004
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Absolutely. And at least these are far more differentiated than the toybaru twins. This car is going to have an entirely different character and an entirely different price tag. I'm excited for the car, even though I don't care for the styling.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:25 PM   #2005
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I'm extraordinarily curious as to the financial details of relationships such as these.

Badge-diversity kind of made sense back when it was done under the umbrella of a single manufacturing group. Re-badging and re-styling the same platform as, say, a Dodge and a Plymouth, or as a Chevrolet and a Pontiac, or as a Ford, a Mercury, and a Lincoln, was very easy to comprehend. All cars rolled off the same line, and all profits flowed upwards to the same account. And while dealerships weren't always combined, it's hard to say that Plymouth Neons took a lot of revenue away from Dodge dealerships, as very little differentiated the non-co-branded platforms to begin with.

But how do Toyobaru and Fizda handle the profit-split?

And, more importantly, how much revenue is Mazda losing? Surely some Miata sales will be lost to Fiat, as the overall market for 2 seat roadsters is relatively fixed in size, and I'm not aware of any country in which Fiat sells cars which is not also served by Mazda. What's the benefit to Mazda to sell rollers to Fiat? For that matter, are Fiat 124 Spiders even going to be built at Hiroshima? Right now, the only French car we have in the USA is manufactured in Mexico by a British company.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:58 PM   #2006
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The Miata survived a credible challenge from the Pontiac Solstice / Saturn Sky before and I think the same thing will happen with Fiat. Mazda has a pretty good reputation for reliability. Fiat has a reputation as a disposable car - use it once, throw it away because it's not worth fixing.

I definitely see the low power output from a turbo being a deal-breaker here. Maybe they are deliberately low-balling the power to appease insurance companies.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:01 PM   #2007
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And, more importantly, how much revenue is Mazda losing? Surely some Miata sales will be lost to Fiat, as the overall market for 2 seat roadsters is relatively fixed in size, and I'm not aware of any country in which Fiat sells cars which is not also served by Mazda. What's the benefit to Mazda to sell rollers to Fiat?
Volume = more units to amortize the cost of development. Even if Mazda is only making a small amount on the rollers, it's still something and helps pay off the R&D costs.

I'm guessing the plan is for the Fiat to be in a different enough market that it will not cannibalize Miata sales, just add existing volume.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:08 PM   #2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
But how do Toyobaru and Fizda handle the profit-split?

And, more importantly, how much revenue is Mazda losing? Surely some Miata sales will be lost to Fiat, as the overall market for 2 seat roadsters is relatively fixed in size, and I'm not aware of any country in which Fiat sells cars which is not also served by Mazda. What's the benefit to Mazda to sell rollers to Fiat? For that matter, are Fiat 124 Spiders even going to be built at Hiroshima? Right now, the only French car we have in the USA is manufactured in Mexico by a British company.
I've wondered about this as well.

The strongest possible theory would be if both Mazda and Fiat (or Toyota and Subaru) believe that within the particular market segment, there isn't really much cross-brand shopping. That is, the guy who buys a Mazda 2-seat convertible isn't likely to cross-shop at the Fiat dealership, and vice versa. So, despite the apparent competition within the same market segment, the disparity in brand image or appeal means there's very little actual competition for a given individual shopper.

I'm not sure whether I would believe this particular theory. Maybe they have a different theory explaining why the (apparent) competition doesn't hurt either company, but I can't think of another.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:22 PM   #2009
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I've wondered about this as well.

The strongest possible theory would be if both Mazda and Fiat (or Toyota and Subaru) believe that within the particular market segment, there isn't really much cross-brand shopping. That is, the guy who buys a Mazda 2-seat convertible isn't likely to cross-shop at the Fiat dealership, and vice versa. So, despite the apparent competition within the same market segment, the disparity in brand image or appeal means there's very little actual competition for a given individual shopper.

I'm not sure whether I would believe this particular theory. Maybe they have a different theory explaining why the (apparent) competition doesn't hurt either company, but I can't think of another.
I think that theory works well for the Fiata, but not for the Toybaru twins.
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Old 11-19-2015, 12:44 AM   #2010
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Mazda is a relatively small manufacturer (especially when compared to the likes of FCA) and they've somewhat had the convertible market cornered for the past 25 years so they definitely know the score, especially with the economy crash and the NC not being exactly well received.

Mazda can be confident in two things. The first is that the Fiat variant isn't going to cannibalize sales too much to even consider the deal. The second, who cares? They're getting paid regardless if the Fiat sits at the dealer lot or not by FCA proper; they're basically being sub-contracted out to put in a different motor and different exterior bits and they get to keep their Hiroshima plant busy with however many cars they build.

That said, it's speculation; however, it must have been a sweetheart deal for Mazda to even consider it.
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Old 11-19-2015, 01:06 AM   #2011
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I think that theory works well for the Fiata, but not for the Toybaru twins.
last I heard the toyobaru twins were selling just fine, so I'm sure the numbers mazda saw in market research are promising
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Old 11-19-2015, 02:10 AM   #2012
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the Fiata
This is still my favorite name for a car. Way better than the Saabaru 9-2X.
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Old 11-19-2015, 02:30 AM   #2013
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last I heard the toyobaru twins were selling just fine, so I'm sure the numbers mazda saw in market research are promising
Yeahhhh they're selling pretty slowly, but either way, I didn't say anything about their sales. Just that the theory of people not cross shopping them doesn't really work because they're not differentiated enough, that's all.
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Old 11-19-2015, 05:19 AM   #2014
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This makes more sense to me than the Toyobaru from a market differentiation viewpoint. Toyobaru clearly cannibalize each other.

In this case, some consumers (like me) will seek out a Japanese make over anything European. There are some that are attracted to European makes (a Mazda vs. Alfa badging split would have been even better for this crowd).

Plus, we have a choice between a "big-bore" normally-aspirated engine and a small turbo motor. Funny that a 2.0SAG is "big-bore." Haha.

I think this is going to work pretty well for both companies.
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Old 11-19-2015, 07:29 AM   #2015
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For that matter, are Fiat 124 Spiders even going to be built at Hiroshima?
Yes, the chassis are all made in Hiroshima and FCA send the engines from Italy.
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Old 11-19-2015, 07:32 AM   #2016
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I know these already add 100 pounds over the regular ND, but a PRHT version of this could really tempt me unless it is 40k. That post from Savington showing the eaaaasy power from a tune and an intake would make it a great DD. It most definitely needs wider tires and a better offset. They look absolutely sunken in with those massive overhangs. Bronze/goldish 6UL's on a white exterior will fix that quickly.
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Old 11-19-2015, 09:25 AM   #2017
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Yes, the chassis are all made in Hiroshima and FCA send the engines from Italy.
I doubt that they'll be sending motors from Italy, but it's not like Poland or Mexico is any easier of a trip... well maybe Mexico. ~2 weeks or so on the water.
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Old 11-19-2015, 09:36 AM   #2018
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last I heard the toyobaru twins were selling just fine, so I'm sure the numbers mazda saw in market research are promising
So I guess the last time you looked was 2014? Sales are WAY down on both versions and used values are terrible (if you want to sell yours). It would seem that most people who wanted one have already purchased one.
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Old 11-19-2015, 09:41 AM   #2019
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I doubt that they'll be sending motors from Italy, but it's not like Poland or Mexico is any easier of a trip...
I wouldn't be terribly surprised.

In the 90s (and possibly now, not sure), VW shipped complete drivetrains from Germany to Mexico to be dropped into Golfs built for the North American market.
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Old 11-19-2015, 09:53 AM   #2020
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Fiat makes the 500 in Poland and Mexico; I was just saying that the motors are definitely not coming from Italy.

Speaking of motors, let's hear that SWEET exhaust note:
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