miataturbo.net-like debauchery thread (about the ND or something) - Page 131 - Miata Turbo Forum -Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


General Miata Chat A place to talk about anything Miata

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-17-2016, 10:06 PM   #2601
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,532
Total Cats: 839
Default

High shaft speeds are road induced, low shaft speeds are driver induced. That is a generalization but the basic reason that being able to separate controls for low and high shaft speeds is desireable.
emilio700 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2016, 10:11 PM   #2602
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 5,805
Total Cats: 551
Default

On the shock dyno, is the "OEM" line the standard damper or the suspension package Bilstein?
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2016, 10:24 PM   #2603
Junior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
williams805's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Goleta, Southern California
Posts: 493
Total Cats: 23
Wink

But any shaft speed on rebound is set by the spring right? I can see how deeper in the stroke the wheel will want to return faster. I totally get that how sharp or tall a bump is will cause compression speeds to change, but it can only return as fast as the spring pushes it back down. You only get a certain amount pushing down once you crest the bump.

Dont mean to derail too much here. This is obviously a very focused thread. Just more research on my end needed I suppose. Growing up riding dirt bikes I'm quite used to 3 ways. Now you got me thinking about 4 ways
williams805 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2016, 10:47 PM   #2604
Elite Member
 
codrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 2,940
Total Cats: 212
Default

I'm a software guy, not an ME, but here's my understanding. Think about what happens over the bump. The wheel moves up, some of that motion translates into compressing the spring, some into moving the body upwards. Since the body weighs a lot more than the wheel, most goes into the spring.

Now the wheel crests the bump, and the wheel is no longer moving up. The energy in the spring pushes the body and wheel away from each other, with the wheel moving a lot faster because it's lighter.

So yes, the wheel will only go down at fast as the spring and gravity will pull it, but that's plenty fast enough to make a difference in driver vs road induced rebound because it is light compared to the body.

--Ian
codrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2016, 10:48 PM   #2605
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,532
Total Cats: 839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
On the shock dyno, is the "OEM" line the standard damper or the suspension package Bilstein?
OEM Showa, not Bilstein.
emilio700 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2016, 10:49 AM   #2606
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: finger lakes NY
Posts: 444
Total Cats: 17
Default

Quote:
But any shaft speed on rebound is set by the spring right?
Study what Emilio said. Make sense out of it. Then you will understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
High shaft speeds are road induced, low shaft speeds are driver induced. That is a generalization but the basic reason that being able to separate controls for low and high shaft speeds is desireable.
DaveC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 10:43 AM   #2607
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 899
Total Cats: 57
Default

Mazda put a belly pan and an 8mm Allen key for the oil drain plug.

They've ruined the Miata forever.
Dunning Kruger Affect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 12:11 PM   #2608
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 605
Total Cats: 32
Default

high speed rebound adjustments are pretty much useless in my opinion. Maybe an F1 team can find gains using them, but for the average consumer it just adds confusion, cost and another hole for the damper fluid to leak out of.

I played with some of these (4 way adjustable mountain bike shocks) for days and couldn't really tell wtf the high-speed rebound was doing. Smart to leave it off the shock IMO.

Attached Thumbnails
miataturbo.net-like debauchery thread (about the ND or something)-80-cane_creek_double_barrel_185faabd0c915dbf9310c1323d4224b30a6eab56.jpg  
dcamp2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 12:49 PM   #2609
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,532
Total Cats: 839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcamp2 View Post
high speed rebound adjustments are pretty much useless in my opinion. Maybe an F1 team can find gains using them, but for the average consumer it just adds confusion, cost and another hole for the damper fluid to leak out of.

I played with some of these (4 way adjustable mountain bike shocks) for days and couldn't really tell wtf the high-speed rebound was doing. Smart to leave it off the shock IMO.
Yup. Very rare situation when you need more high speed rebound in a sports car. At higher shaft speeds, the bulk of the energy acting on the damper is just the stored spring energy and unsprung mass.As those remain effectively constant (inertial effects notwithstanding) the damper can be valved
to deal with them without requiring further adjustments. Driver input and road surface are out of the picture. In off road suspensions, high speed rebound can be tuned to change how the vehicle performs near full droop. I see that high speed rebound adjustment employed in rally cars and off road trucks/buggies.

NA/NB and also ND Xidas for example, have digressive pistons that bleed off most of the high speed rebound. This allows an adjustable low speed segment where driver input, roll moment (grip) and vehicle weight are highly variable and
often require tuning. The high speed portion is tuned by yours truly with a range of wheel assemblies. On a vehicle with much heavier wheels/tires, less or no digression is needed. On the NA/NB at least (low unspuing mass), the only way to get the suspension to work without digression is to have too little low speed rebound so that the entire rebound side is weak. This has the added benefit of being able to pressure balance more easily and also reduces hysteresis. Problem is handling ultimately suffers with race tires when there is inadequate low speed rebound so we don't do it. Typically, we'll focus on a typical track setup but also test a super light and also heavier wheel setup just to make sure we don't uncover any anomalous behavior. The Tecna's for example, have been carefully dialed to work with OEM weight wheels/tires but still cope with the now standard 225/45/15 EHP on 15x9 6UL. At the relatively low price point they're targeted for, that has proven a challenge. Many prototype valving sets rejected.

So yeah, decisions made for function reasons, not cost or bling factor.
emilio700 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 12:52 PM   #2610
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 12,183
Total Cats: 748
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
The Tecna's for example, have been carefully dialed to work with OEM weight wheels/tires but still cope with the now standard 225/45/15 EHP on 15x9 6UL. At the relatively low price point they're targeted for, that has proven a challenge. Many prototype valving sets rejected.
So what you are saying is Tecna's are still being worked on slowly and might one day become a reality for the consumer?
shuiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 12:55 PM   #2611
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 33,146
Total Cats: 1,988
Default

I sure hope so. Please don't let them go the way of the rev9 or whatever it was you were going to name those wheels.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 12:57 PM   #2612
SOMEOFIT
iTrader: (1)
 
Girz0r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,506
Total Cats: 220
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
So what you are saying is Tecna's are still being worked on slowly and might one day become a reality for the consumer?
take my money meow?
Girz0r is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 01:00 PM   #2613
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,532
Total Cats: 839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
So what you are saying is Tecna's are still being worked on slowly and might one day become a reality for the consumer?
That has always been the case, never stated otherwise. We just don't publish ETA, price, spec or anything else. We'll announce them when they are in stock and ready to ship. I only mentioned here to illustrate how that particular area of the damping curve receives specific attention in relation to it's intended usage.
emilio700 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 01:37 PM   #2614
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Israel
Posts: 206
Total Cats: -15
Default

After this statement I am surely going to wait and give my moneys to you when the time comes.
yossi126 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 01:40 PM   #2615
Crumple Zone Tester
iTrader: (6)
 
mgeoffriau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Jackson, MS
Posts: 7,477
Total Cats: 373
Default

Just give me 2 weeks advance notice on the Tecna's so I can sell my budget Bilsteins.
mgeoffriau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 01:57 PM   #2616
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 33,146
Total Cats: 1,988
Default

No problem. Consider this thread your 2 year notice
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 02:07 PM   #2617
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,532
Total Cats: 839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
No problem. Consider this thread your 2 year notice
I'll be sure to backorder your set.
emilio700 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 03:17 PM   #2618
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 33,146
Total Cats: 1,988
Default

well played
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 05:14 PM   #2619
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 250
Total Cats: 37
Default

Anyone have reliable lap times that ND's are running? Actually being driven to the limit on 200tw tires? I'm curious how they stack up, and haven't seen any at our tracks around here yet. If so, mods list would be helpful.

Has the ECU intrusion/limitations during constant track use been permanently dealt with? I've been following this thread pretty close for the last year and don't recall updates on these items.
dasting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2016, 05:52 PM   #2620
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,532
Total Cats: 839
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasting View Post
Anyone have reliable lap times that ND's are running? Actually being driven to the limit on 200tw tires? I'm curious how they stack up, and haven't seen any at our tracks around here yet. If so, mods list would be helpful.

Has the ECU intrusion/limitations during constant track use been permanently dealt with? I've been following this thread pretty close for the last year and don't recall updates on these items.
The car is still new enough that there are very few that are both well prepared, tuned properly and driven by an advanced level pilot. That said and given the same level of mods, the ND is quicker than any other year Miata, the FRS and close to an S2000.
emilio700 is online now   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OTS Bilstein to motorsports ASN conversion stoves Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 5 04-21-2016 04:00 PM
Going back to stock. Need some 1.6 parts. Trent WTB 2 10-01-2015 01:15 PM
Leaky Wilwoods mx592 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 1 10-01-2015 01:45 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:49 PM.