miataturbo.net-like debauchery thread (about the ND or something) - Page 37 - Miata Turbo Forum -Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 02-06-2015, 11:52 AM   #721
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Well hold on there.

I assume you're exaggerating?

I don't have a problem passing people or merging onto a highway much faster than general flow of traffic in my heavier, less powerful, and less fuel efficient NB.
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:52 AM   #722
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I am hoping that the 155 number is more a limitation of mazda wanting to keep the car running very lean for fuel economy and still meet emissions numbers. Otherwise, I think it is really strange for them to have spent the money to design a new head, new exhaust, and new intake, and not see gains.

I want the car to have more power so it sells better since I don't plan to buy one until they are cheap and I can cut holes in it without feeling bad about it.

When magazines write up the reviews of the car the message they are going to be communicating is much more complicated. It will be "The car accelerates better than the NC thanks to its low weight and increased torque, in spite of its lower horsepower." It's much better to be able to tell customers "The ND is faster than the NC thanks to its increased power and large weight reduction."
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:52 AM   #723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Sure, i get it. I'd be moist in my panties right now if it had 300hp.

But i'd also be far less likely to buy it if it had 300hp, because it would be heavier and cost more.

I don't really care if anyone else likes it or not, but it's fun to discuss and poke fun at things.

I like it either way, and that's all that matters to me.
Fair enough, you like it. That's cool. I like the car A LOT except for the lack of engine progress. I know you already said the Miata is all about having a crap engine, but I can't accept keeping that shitty attitude in today's marketplace.

I constantly see the horsepower expectation being overblown by those defending the car though. Nowhere is anyone asking for 300 HP. Personally I was hoping for the "specially tuned" Skyactiv that Mazda promised, and I don't mean that in a "Mwwaa ha ha we DE-tuned it suckers" from Mazda. 170HP would bring it back to the NC1 advertised [pre-SAE] power, and 172HP would match the HP/L of the 1.5L Skyactiv offering. I'd be OK with that, at least it would make sense on paper.



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Originally Posted by asmasm View Post
I am hoping that the 155 number is more a limitation of mazda wanting to keep the car running very lean for fuel economy and still meet emissions numbers. Otherwise, I think it is really strange for them to have spent the money to design a new head, new exhaust, and new intake, and not see gains.

I want the car to have more power so it sells better since I don't plan to buy one until they are cheap and I can cut holes in it without feeling bad about it.

When magazines write up the reviews of the car the message they are going to be communicating is much more complicated. It will be "The car accelerates better than the NC thanks to its low weight and increased torque, in spite of its lower horsepower." It's much better to be able to tell customers "The ND is faster than the NC thanks to its increased power and large weight reduction."
WUT. Factory cars don't run lean, otherwise they wouldn't meet emissions. Lean at part throttle, even if they could get away with it these days, is totally irrelevant for WOT power. Your fundamental knowledge is missing.

Also, weight plays virtually no part once you're at Interstate speeds. You need torque and low total aero drag. The ND will accelerate slower at high RPM on the Interstate than the NC, period.
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:54 AM   #724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Sure, i get it. I'd be moist in my panties right now if it had 300hp.

But i'd also be far less likely to buy it if it had 300hp, because it would be heavier and cost more.
Please, just stop. I am so tired of people making this jump from 155hp is not enough to "Well the miata is not suppose to have 300hp" or some other absurd number. People wanted an engine that wasn't a class leader in lowest hp not a ******* rocket car. Every other manufacturer is putting out at least 20 more hp from their 2.0L engines that are designed for high mpg commuter cars.
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:55 AM   #725
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I decided to go look at some numbers. They ultimately mean nothing, but it does act as a point of data for "HP not being the end-all".

Sales for the S2000 in the US:
Code:
1999	3,400
2000	6,797
2001 	9,682
2002	9,684
2003	7,888
2004	7,320
2005	7,780
2006	6,271
2007	4,302
2008	2,538
2009	795
2010	85
2011	5
TOTAL	66,547
I chopped off 2010+ for the MX-5
Code:
Year	Sales (U.S.)
1999	17,738
2000	18,299
2001	16,486
2002	14,392
2003	10,920
2004	9,356
2005	9,801
2006	16,897
2007	15,075
2008	10,977
2009	7,917
Total	130,120
The S2000 is undoubtedly "The Benchmark" (reliable, roadster, 200+ HP, etc). Honda could justify a niche product since they're a huge company. I think that asking Mazda to do the same when they're a fraction of the size is framing the argument unfairly.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:01 PM   #726
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I dont think any of us want 300hp from the base model miata. I'm shooting at 180 being the number that would be perfect for the base to come with stock. If they want to make a mega awesome mazdaspeed version with more than that, cool. But 180 puts them in the position where people thinking about buying a brz would consider cross shopping the miata. 155hp pretty much locks you into only the hardcore racer who intends to violently pillage the car, the mid life crises man who cant afford a corvette convertible, and senior citizens who want a nice boring reliable drop top to drive around to the beach and stuff (aka the only people who bought toyota solara converts). The difference in some cams, manifolds, and engine tuning is locking them out of quadrupling their available audience with the crowd of youngish people buying cheap sports cars.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:02 PM   #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
Please, just stop. I am so tired of people making this jump from 155hp is not enough to "Well the miata is not suppose to have 300hp" or some other absurd number. People wanted an engine that wasn't a class leader in lowest hp not a ******* rocket car. Every other manufacturer is putting out at least 20 more hp from their 2.0L engines that are designed for high mpg commuter cars.

I'd be more moist in the pants at 170hp than at 155hp.

Neither leaves me dry like a desert. Either way, i'm ready for insertion.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:02 PM   #728
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Originally Posted by Ryephile View Post
Fair enough, you like it. That's cool. I like the car A LOT except for the lack of engine progress. I know you already said the Miata is all about having a crap engine, but I can't accept keeping that shitty attitude in today's marketplace.
Nobody's accepting a shitty attitude about power being down.

People are accepting that **** doesn't happen in a vacuum and that there are external factors outside of putting down HP/L numbers such as fuel efficiency and emissions targets.

At the end of the day, you're still whining about the lack of horsepower and how betrayed, etc you are that Mazda didn't build a car to your exact specifications. It's OK to be disappointed, but you don't have to let everyone in the world know how much you're not going to buy the car and how Mazda completely screwed the pooch on the ND and whatnot because there's an entire legion of people at mnet that have some very important opinions that they want everyone to know.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:07 PM   #729
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Optimistic view...

I see the 2.0L being a great success in the modification realm.

Direct injection? 13:1 CR? 155HP? I have a feeling the ecu is going to be greatly detuned from factory.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:11 PM   #730
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Originally Posted by Girz0r View Post
Optimistic view...

I see the 2.0L being a great success in the modification realm.

Direct injection? 13:1 CR? 155HP? I have a feeling the ecu is going to be greatly detuned from factory.

This is my view. Throw some premium or corn juice at that thing, open up the breathing, and see what she does.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:15 PM   #731
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
This is my view. Throw some premium or corn juice at that thing, open up the breathing, and see what she does.
I mean I guess, maybe dyno numbers of the car with bolt-ons and a tune will actually sway the type of people who are young, use the internet, and buy brzs. That still rests on someone breaking the ecu early, and that someone being a program that doesnt suck to use. Mazda edit already supports the skyactiv 2.0 in the mazda 3 so they'll probably have support for it almost immediately.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:18 PM   #732
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WUT. Factory cars don't run lean, otherwise they wouldn't meet emissions. Lean at part throttle, even if they could get away with it these days, is totally irrelevant for WOT power.
That was kind of the point. I am suggesting they are limited by some combination of how lean the car is run for the fuel economy goals and how much they are retarding spark at high load to control knock and HC. I was making that suggestion because I hope that with better fuel and no emissions restrictions the engine could produce a lot more power. In case you haven't seen any of the skyactiv presentations from dave coleman, the whole point is increased fuel economy with out having to ruin our fun with hybrids and CVTs. Fuel economy is really high up the priority list for mazda even if most of us could give two ***** about it.

I make no claim to understand how the federal emissions testing for new cars being brought to the USA is done or if it includes any testing at wot. I would assume its totally different than your local inspection.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:18 PM   #733
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
This is my view. Throw some premium or corn juice at that thing, open up the breathing, and see what she does.
Yessir, and a poor example to go along with it.

I found the other day I could flash the GF's 2015 FRS with a tune from delicious tuning. Instant difference with zero hardware, only ecu flash. Combined with a corn sensor and evenMOAR OMG.

BRZ/FRS wise. I initially thought 'meh' but the mod scene has proven errbody wrong. Now we see EFR kits etc. Full of win.

With the miata community as a whole. Who freakin cares! WE GUN' MOD THAT SUCKR
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:18 PM   #734
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
Nobody's accepting a shitty attitude about power being down.

People are accepting that **** doesn't happen in a vacuum and that there are external factors outside of putting down HP/L numbers such as fuel efficiency and emissions targets.

At the end of the day, you're still whining about the lack of horsepower and how betrayed, etc you are that Mazda didn't build a car to your exact specifications. It's OK to be disappointed, but you don't have to let everyone in the world know how much you're not going to buy the car and how Mazda completely screwed the pooch on the ND and whatnot because there's an entire legion of people at mnet that have some very important opinions that they want everyone to know.
Your blind defense is definitely on-par with the tread title. Pitchforks and hysteria towards anyone talking logical and rational.

I expected Mazda to give the same attention to the ND's 2.0 as they did the 1.5. That means 172HP, which is hardly ground breaking or even outside the realm of average. Upholding a double standard is ignorant.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:21 PM   #735
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Originally Posted by Ryephile View Post
Your blind defense is definitely on-par with the tread title. Pitchforks and hysteria towards anyone talking logical and rational.

I expected Mazda to give the same attention to the ND's 2.0 as they did the 1.5. That means 172HP, which is hardly ground breaking or even outside the realm of average. Upholding a double standard is ignorant.

You sound like you're all about the 1.5 because it makes more power for the Miata.

Am i on the right track?
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:23 PM   #736
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Originally Posted by asmasm View Post
That was kind of the point. I am suggesting they are limited by some combination of how lean the car is run for the fuel economy goals and how much they are retarding spark at high load to control knock and HC.

I make no claim to understand how the federal emissions testing for new cars being brought to the USA is done or if it includes any testing at wot. I would assume its totally different than your local inspection.
EPA dictates tailpipe emissions based on 5 different rolling road tests at specific atmospheric conditions. It has nothing to do with our state's preferences, CA excluded obviously.

You can't run leaner than Stoich as tailpipe NOx and HC skyrocket. This isn't the EU where only CO2 is paid attention to.

WOT only happens if the car needs to according to the speed vs. time requirements of the 5 rolling road tests. Yes, there is a minimum legal acceleration for new cars sold in the USA.


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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
You sound like you're all about the 1.5 because it makes more power for the Miata.

Am i on the right track?

If it were boosted it would be tempting. I tend to agree with Mazda's decision to not bring it here though. The extra 30-ish LbFt is bare minimum for these psychotic Interstates.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:33 PM   #737
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You're pretty bad at reading comprehension, haha.
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:36 PM   #738
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I've never seen so much estrogen in a MT thread

It's like you've all period-sync'd
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:37 PM   #739
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It's just Ryephile getting worked up and DKE being unable to not poke him in the process
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:38 PM   #740
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
I've never seen so much estrogen in a MT thread

It's like you've all period-sync'd

This is because only women who don't value power will buy the new Miata. Those of us that possess axe wounds naturally gravitate to this thread.
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