A proper setup for SCCA autocross
#22
no, me can read you post. me think you very humorous. me think you cornfused.
The T25 comp wheel is 56mm, 60 trim. Turbine is 53.8mm, 60 trim.
http://importnut.net/turbosizing.htm
http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/306956
So I guess with your "all 60 trims have the same map" philosophy you could split the difference between the 53.8mm and 60mm maps.
One day you'll figure out how to use your forum and you'll be able to permanently ban people.....
The T25 comp wheel is 56mm, 60 trim. Turbine is 53.8mm, 60 trim.
http://importnut.net/turbosizing.htm
http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/306956
So I guess with your "all 60 trims have the same map" philosophy you could split the difference between the 53.8mm and 60mm maps.
One day you'll figure out how to use your forum and you'll be able to permanently ban people.....
#23
Boost Czar
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gtx150 im so very glad you were smart enough to make another screen name. yes i did not do an ip ban, yet.
you were not smart enough too distinguish the fact that the t25 we keep referring to is not the GT2560R you keep linking.
if i was going to tell him to use a gt2560R i would have said use a GT2560R.
if i were going to tell him to use a S15 T28, i would have linked the GT2560R map, as that is the same. Or I might tell him to find an OEM GT28R, which is the same thing a the now GT2560R. Gee-Willicers how does that work?!
like i said before t25 = 54mm, t28 = 60mm
its great you are able to search and link and post and pretend you know something, but you saw "OEM sr20det turbo" on garrett's website and assumed a heck of a lot.
you were not smart enough too distinguish the fact that the t25 we keep referring to is not the GT2560R you keep linking.
if i was going to tell him to use a gt2560R i would have said use a GT2560R.
if i were going to tell him to use a S15 T28, i would have linked the GT2560R map, as that is the same. Or I might tell him to find an OEM GT28R, which is the same thing a the now GT2560R. Gee-Willicers how does that work?!
like i said before t25 = 54mm, t28 = 60mm
its great you are able to search and link and post and pretend you know something, but you saw "OEM sr20det turbo" on garrett's website and assumed a heck of a lot.
#31
I am going to go against the grain here.
DO NOT FI if you want to autoX. You'd be best served getting a lot of seat time, a decent suspension, and a good aggressive alignment.
Your money would be best spent on V710's after getting really good on say Azenis. Try that first.
DO NOT FI if you want to autoX. You'd be best served getting a lot of seat time, a decent suspension, and a good aggressive alignment.
Your money would be best spent on V710's after getting really good on say Azenis. Try that first.
I'll take FI please. Racing in stock class is teh suck. You might happen to have THE car for a while until something else comes out and you are fucked. At least if you are running SM2 there is a lot, providing you have the funds, you can do to make you car more competitive. In stock, buy a new car or bitch about getting fucked by the new classing. Stock class is where 99% of the bullshit politics occur and in MY opinion is what can turn a lot of people off. I ran ES on Azenis for my first year, I enjoyed the sport so much more when I did the suspension and ran RA-1. Now with an FI car on 710's I nearly blow my load every run I take.
You can learn to autocross on R's. You can even do it in a non-stock car. Besides, I don't think I want 10 minutes of seat time every couple of weeks to completely dictate what I do with the car. While you bask in the glory of a regional win in CS, I'll take my mid pack finish and bad assed ride on the street.
/rant
#32
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Wow you guys are really fast. Thank you for all the inputs.
Just to clarify, I don't want the "perfect" SM2 car. My main aim is to learn how to put together a proper turbo setup from scratch to fit my needs that's all. I know tires and suspension make the difference in auto-x, but that's not why this topic exists.
To sum up, so far the consensus is:
Turbo - T25
Manifold - Log style
I/c tubing size - Doesnt matter
Wastegate - Internal
Fuel Injectors - Bigger than 330 cc on stock FPR with Megasquirt
Exhaust - Anything but side exit. Will worry about this later.
About turbo sizing. I'll tell you guys why I considered something other than the T25. I had always suspected that the T25 is oversized for my needs, but to prove my point I did some analysis this evening and I want to share the results.
First, I plotted this airflow vs. RPM curve for the Miata 1.6 engine at a pressure ratio of 1.8 (desired hp/original hp or 175 whp/95 whp). I had to make many assumptions to get this curve, but I think its fairly accurate for an autocross/street situation:
So in the 2500 to 5800 rpm range, the compressor needs to flow between 5 and 20 lbs/min of air. The compressor is assumed to spool up to 12 psi (i.e. 1.8 pressure ratio) by 3100 rpm at which point its flowing 8 lbs/min.
Then I made this chart and overlaid it on a few compressor maps.
That yields a compressor efficiency vs. RPM chart as below:
An efficiency of 0% means that surge or choke limits have been reached for that combo of airflow and pressure ratio.
K03-2072 (black line) is the turbo commonly referred to as K03-Sport in the VW/Audi community. You guys know all the others.
From this analysis, it looks like the 13G (red line) is the best, but the K03 and 15G (green line) come close. You can see why Greddy chose the 15G for their kit. The GT2554R (blue line) seems to be the poorest choice of all.
So what do you guys think about the validity of this analysis? Does it reflect real-world results? People with 15G and 13G turbos please post your experience.
I understand compressor maps dont tell the whole story but turbine maps except for Garrett arent that common, and I have to go by anecdotal evidence for the final selection.
Just to clarify, I don't want the "perfect" SM2 car. My main aim is to learn how to put together a proper turbo setup from scratch to fit my needs that's all. I know tires and suspension make the difference in auto-x, but that's not why this topic exists.
To sum up, so far the consensus is:
Turbo - T25
Manifold - Log style
I/c tubing size - Doesnt matter
Wastegate - Internal
Fuel Injectors - Bigger than 330 cc on stock FPR with Megasquirt
Exhaust - Anything but side exit. Will worry about this later.
About turbo sizing. I'll tell you guys why I considered something other than the T25. I had always suspected that the T25 is oversized for my needs, but to prove my point I did some analysis this evening and I want to share the results.
First, I plotted this airflow vs. RPM curve for the Miata 1.6 engine at a pressure ratio of 1.8 (desired hp/original hp or 175 whp/95 whp). I had to make many assumptions to get this curve, but I think its fairly accurate for an autocross/street situation:
So in the 2500 to 5800 rpm range, the compressor needs to flow between 5 and 20 lbs/min of air. The compressor is assumed to spool up to 12 psi (i.e. 1.8 pressure ratio) by 3100 rpm at which point its flowing 8 lbs/min.
Then I made this chart and overlaid it on a few compressor maps.
That yields a compressor efficiency vs. RPM chart as below:
An efficiency of 0% means that surge or choke limits have been reached for that combo of airflow and pressure ratio.
K03-2072 (black line) is the turbo commonly referred to as K03-Sport in the VW/Audi community. You guys know all the others.
From this analysis, it looks like the 13G (red line) is the best, but the K03 and 15G (green line) come close. You can see why Greddy chose the 15G for their kit. The GT2554R (blue line) seems to be the poorest choice of all.
So what do you guys think about the validity of this analysis? Does it reflect real-world results? People with 15G and 13G turbos please post your experience.
I understand compressor maps dont tell the whole story but turbine maps except for Garrett arent that common, and I have to go by anecdotal evidence for the final selection.
#33
puh-leeez
I'll take FI please. Racing in stock class is teh suck. You might happen to have THE car for a while until something else comes out and you are fucked. At least if you are running SM2 there is a lot, providing you have the funds, you can do to make you car more competitive. In stock, buy a new car or bitch about getting fucked by the new classing. Stock class is where 99% of the bullshit politics occur and in MY opinion is what can turn a lot of people off. I ran ES on Azenis for my first year, I enjoyed the sport so much more when I did the suspension and ran RA-1. Now with an FI car on 710's I nearly blow my load every run I take.
You can learn to autocross on R's. You can even do it in a non-stock car. Besides, I don't think I want 10 minutes of seat time every couple of weeks to completely dictate what I do with the car. While you bask in the glory of a regional win in CS, I'll take my mid pack finish and bad assed ride on the street.
/rant
I'll take FI please. Racing in stock class is teh suck. You might happen to have THE car for a while until something else comes out and you are fucked. At least if you are running SM2 there is a lot, providing you have the funds, you can do to make you car more competitive. In stock, buy a new car or bitch about getting fucked by the new classing. Stock class is where 99% of the bullshit politics occur and in MY opinion is what can turn a lot of people off. I ran ES on Azenis for my first year, I enjoyed the sport so much more when I did the suspension and ran RA-1. Now with an FI car on 710's I nearly blow my load every run I take.
You can learn to autocross on R's. You can even do it in a non-stock car. Besides, I don't think I want 10 minutes of seat time every couple of weeks to completely dictate what I do with the car. While you bask in the glory of a regional win in CS, I'll take my mid pack finish and bad assed ride on the street.
/rant
The original thread title asked for proper scca set up. The proper setup always should start with the Driver=>suspension/alignment=>power. A faster car can help a slow driver, but a fast driver can make a fast car even faster.
if this this was a thread about how to get a quick responding turbo that should have been the question, or maybe even in the DIY section.
so shut up and sit down.
thank you come again
#34
Boost Czar
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here's a before an after of my system throughout a year span, the 200rwhp number is a stock 1.6L with a 2.25" exhaust. Then the same setup with minor headwork and a 3" exhaust
when you start getting into small turbos, you have to be careful that not only the compressor can flow enough that you need, but the exhaust side can move enough lb/min that it doesn't choke up, up top and you're torque drops off the map.
too bad we both lifted, but you can see both at 12psi, this being the previous T25 I spoke of, the smaller turbo needed no headwork or bigger exhaust to result in the same exact power below 6k. This setup also had the same exhaust DP and exhaust so the comparison is pretty good. But you see where his torque is about to start to drop and mine keeps going up
With that said, for a sub $200 price tag, this is why I think it's a good turbo for you.
#35
Boost Pope
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I struggle with this. I went FI before I started autocrossing, so I didn't have much of a choice. It's straight to SM2 with the big guns.
Personally, I look at it this way- if I was serious about autoX, then I wouldn't drive a FI Miata. It's just never going to win. In fact, the day that an NA takes the top spot at Topeka in SM2, I will eat my turbocharger. However I'm not "serious" about autoX, it's just something fun to do. I won't let the fact that I'm FI stop me from autocrossing, just like I wouldn't let the fact that I occasionally autoX stop me from going FI.
So like I said earlier- if you are "serious" about this, and you're building a dedicated autoX car, then either skip FI, or install a big supercharger. You'd also best budget for some 15x10 wheels and several sets of Hoosier 275-35-15 A6s.
If however you're building a street car, and you want to play with the big boys when you autoX for fun, then by all means, turbo FTW.
That's unfortunate. Here in San Diego, SM is probably one of the most laid-back classes. Yeah, we've all got some money in the cars, but there are no professionals driving SM around here- just guys with HP addictions. Street Prepared is probably the biggest political scene, and even there you don't hear about too much fighting. It's just that in SM I wouldn't expect to get protested for anything short of a nuclear reactor sticking out from under the hood. (well, ok. If I were to show up in a Fiat Panda and start trophying every week, then someone might ask questions...)
Personally, I look at it this way- if I was serious about autoX, then I wouldn't drive a FI Miata. It's just never going to win. In fact, the day that an NA takes the top spot at Topeka in SM2, I will eat my turbocharger. However I'm not "serious" about autoX, it's just something fun to do. I won't let the fact that I'm FI stop me from autocrossing, just like I wouldn't let the fact that I occasionally autoX stop me from going FI.
So like I said earlier- if you are "serious" about this, and you're building a dedicated autoX car, then either skip FI, or install a big supercharger. You'd also best budget for some 15x10 wheels and several sets of Hoosier 275-35-15 A6s.
If however you're building a street car, and you want to play with the big boys when you autoX for fun, then by all means, turbo FTW.
Hell SM2 has ever more politics actually because most of the people there are the ones dumping a ton of money into their cars to race.
#36
I think the new Hoosier 275s have given the Miata a chance in SM2. There are a few of us prepping our cars to take a run at it. My car sits in the top overall spot or very close to it pretty much every month on a local level. Yes local, but we have some heavy hitters and net close to 150 cars an event.
Now that was in CSP trim and only 125 to the wheels. I only need to pick up 0.66s on a 60s course to maintain that position. I don't think I am going to have trouble doing that with the modifications allowed in SM2 and an additional 100HP.
#37
Enjoy running in CS.
so shut up and sit down.
Last edited by jayc72; 02-07-2008 at 11:18 AM.
#38
Joe isn't saying a Miata can't win, just that an normally aspirated one won't. It's going to take either a supercharger or a turbo to get it done. Since I assume the car you are going to campaign is your FFS car.
I really hope to see you chewing on some turbine blades in the next few years Joe.
I think the new Hoosier 275s have given the Miata a chance in SM2. There are a few of us prepping our cars to take a run at it. My car sits in the top overall spot or very close to it pretty much every month on a local level. Yes local, but we have some heavy hitters and net close to 150 cars an event.
Now that was in CSP trim and only 125 to the wheels. I only need to pick up 0.66s on a 60s course to maintain that position. I don't think I am going to have trouble doing that with the modifications allowed in SM2 and an additional 100HP.
I think the new Hoosier 275s have given the Miata a chance in SM2. There are a few of us prepping our cars to take a run at it. My car sits in the top overall spot or very close to it pretty much every month on a local level. Yes local, but we have some heavy hitters and net close to 150 cars an event.
Now that was in CSP trim and only 125 to the wheels. I only need to pick up 0.66s on a 60s course to maintain that position. I don't think I am going to have trouble doing that with the modifications allowed in SM2 and an additional 100HP.
#39
Boost Pope
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But seriously. The TD04H-15G is a small turbo. It spools quickly, yet it's still reasonably efficient when making 12PSI at 7,000RPM.
On the other hand, it's a journal-bearing, non water-cooled unit. For some reason, that combination scares me. No problems yet, but all else being equal I'd choose a Garrett for the water-cooling alone.