How dificult is it to reach 300hp with 1.6?
03-22-2008, 09:33 PM
#1
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How dificult is it to reach 300hp with 1.6?
hopefully this is a good form, and I wont get flamed.
I did search but didnt find any thing really helped.
First off hello to all at miataturbo, im a newb to miatas. Im about to buy a 93 miata, I have owned three 240sx's in the past and just want to do something differnt.My question to you is, in your opinion what route should I go to reach 300hp?
-pre fab kits are any of put together well?
-1.6 to a 1.8 is it really worth the 200cc?
-how much boost on stock internals?
-Or should I do a diy kit?
my buget is 5000-7000
thanks
I did search but didnt find any thing really helped.
First off hello to all at miataturbo, im a newb to miatas. Im about to buy a 93 miata, I have owned three 240sx's in the past and just want to do something differnt.My question to you is, in your opinion what route should I go to reach 300hp?
-pre fab kits are any of put together well?
-1.6 to a 1.8 is it really worth the 200cc?
-how much boost on stock internals?
-Or should I do a diy kit?
my buget is 5000-7000
thanks
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03-22-2008, 09:41 PM
#2
Search results are sometimes hard to find. Did you go to the big FAQ thingy? It has a lot of info on turboing your mazda. Go to the DIY forum here and it's at the top I believe.
No prefab kit will get you to 300whp on a 1.6. Making 300 whp on a stock 1.6 is probably not gonna happen, but people have made 250 or so on them, so that's debatable. I'm going for 300whp on stock engine but I have the 1.8. This is a DIY forum, so everyone's gonna say do a DIY turbo setup. You can do it for less than your budget. Also, FWIW 250 whp is supposedly the "sweetspot" for turboing your miata. After that, everything breaks so to speak (not really, but a lot of stuff needs to be addressed to go from 250 whp to 300, though mechanical empathy plays a huge part too)
No prefab kit will get you to 300whp on a 1.6. Making 300 whp on a stock 1.6 is probably not gonna happen, but people have made 250 or so on them, so that's debatable. I'm going for 300whp on stock engine but I have the 1.8. This is a DIY forum, so everyone's gonna say do a DIY turbo setup. You can do it for less than your budget. Also, FWIW 250 whp is supposedly the "sweetspot" for turboing your miata. After that, everything breaks so to speak (not really, but a lot of stuff needs to be addressed to go from 250 whp to 300, though mechanical empathy plays a huge part too)
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03-22-2008, 10:58 PM
#7
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First off, hello and welcome. MiataTurbo can be a tough crowd, but it sounds like you've done some homework and your budget is certainly realistic.
300 RWHP is probably achievable on a 1.6 engine. We see 200-225 every day, I'd imagine that if you really did it right you could probably hit the magic number. Granted, some longevity is going to be sacrificed, but you already know that. This being said, the Miata is an amazingly light car, and even 200 WHP is a lot when you're only pushing around ~2,000 lbs.
I wouldn't bother with a 1.8 conversion. When it comes to forced induction, the return on investment for such a thing is pretty low. What you will want is to find a complete differential assembly, with propshaft and side axles from a 1.8 car. In '94, they changed to a beefier ring & pinion setup- the '90-'93 diffs are known for breaking. Upgrading to a later setup will also give you the option to run a Tosen LSD- they came standard in many, but not all '94+ Miatas. Whether or not you need to beef up the internals of the engine will probably spark some debate. At 200 HP, the answer is definitely not. Beyond that, well... A very reasonably priced set of H-beam rods was recently introduced- there's been some discussion (and I think a group buy) here lately, though the details escape me. Some searching will probably produce results.
There are two "big names" when it comes to turbocharging the Miata. First is Bell Engineering, owned by Corky Bell, who pretty much wrote the book on the subject, both figuratively and literally. http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages...bosystems.html
Second is Flyin' Miata. For many years they were Bell's primary distributor, but about a year ago they parted company and designed their own systems: http://flyinmiata.com/index.php?dept=29
They're both good companies to deal with.
As a starting point, I'd suggest that you look at the Bell System 1. They will sell it to you without the "fuel management" (a high-pressure fuel pump and AFPR) and allow you to substitute a larger turbo than the standard GT2554, as well as larger intercoolers if you wish.
To that, add a Megasquirt ECU. You can buy a fully plug-n-play unit from Bell, or from DIYAutotune.com, the manufacturer. Add a wideband O2 sensor and 550cc injectors, and you've got nearly everything you need.
300 RWHP is probably achievable on a 1.6 engine. We see 200-225 every day, I'd imagine that if you really did it right you could probably hit the magic number. Granted, some longevity is going to be sacrificed, but you already know that. This being said, the Miata is an amazingly light car, and even 200 WHP is a lot when you're only pushing around ~2,000 lbs.
I wouldn't bother with a 1.8 conversion. When it comes to forced induction, the return on investment for such a thing is pretty low. What you will want is to find a complete differential assembly, with propshaft and side axles from a 1.8 car. In '94, they changed to a beefier ring & pinion setup- the '90-'93 diffs are known for breaking. Upgrading to a later setup will also give you the option to run a Tosen LSD- they came standard in many, but not all '94+ Miatas. Whether or not you need to beef up the internals of the engine will probably spark some debate. At 200 HP, the answer is definitely not. Beyond that, well... A very reasonably priced set of H-beam rods was recently introduced- there's been some discussion (and I think a group buy) here lately, though the details escape me. Some searching will probably produce results.
There are two "big names" when it comes to turbocharging the Miata. First is Bell Engineering, owned by Corky Bell, who pretty much wrote the book on the subject, both figuratively and literally. http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages...bosystems.html
Second is Flyin' Miata. For many years they were Bell's primary distributor, but about a year ago they parted company and designed their own systems: http://flyinmiata.com/index.php?dept=29
They're both good companies to deal with.
As a starting point, I'd suggest that you look at the Bell System 1. They will sell it to you without the "fuel management" (a high-pressure fuel pump and AFPR) and allow you to substitute a larger turbo than the standard GT2554, as well as larger intercoolers if you wish.
To that, add a Megasquirt ECU. You can buy a fully plug-n-play unit from Bell, or from DIYAutotune.com, the manufacturer. Add a wideband O2 sensor and 550cc injectors, and you've got nearly everything you need.
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03-23-2008, 12:07 AM
#8
A built motor/head, rear end and a big turbo will get you over 300 whp at about 15 pounds of boost. It's not any harder then anything else, only replacement for displacement is more boost, you'll make same amount of power with a 1.8 but it will take a few less pounds of boost that's all, but if it's built who cares, that's the way I see it of course. 
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03-23-2008, 12:13 AM
#9
Boost Pope
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I suppose it might also do well for us to ask the intended purpose of said car. Is this to be a daily driver, a track car, or just generally an insane weekend plaything?
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03-23-2008, 12:16 AM
#10
If you're gonna push 300whp on a stock motor, it's not gonna last very long (I'm talking months)... and the rest of the car really isn't built for that kind of power although people do it. The list of sooner-or-later upgrades for safety and reliability (so you're not breaking **** every other week) is pretty long.
How I would do it with my money...
'94-'95 good upkeep, and already has the basics... rollbar, shocks, tires/wheels, etc... A decent daily driver with good paint and a clean interior should run about $5k. Mileage unimportant as long as the car is in good shape.
Drivetrain:
1.8 w/forged rods, low compression forged pistons tri-coated, good rings, port&polished '99 head w/coated valves.
ACT XT w/6puck
6-spd tranny
RX7 clutch LSD
Turbo: Begi tubular Manifold w/external wastegate and a GT2860, Tial, 3" full exhaust (investigate GT3071). Standard eBay IC/piping/couplers/intake.
ECU: Hydra w/650's and COP conversion.
Little ****: FM fuel rail, Walbro, Koyo 55mm, coolant reroute, catch-can, pyrometer, water-temp gauge... the list goes on...
Of course I'd need some 245's and the fenders to fit them...
Then turn boost to 20psi... replace oil every 3kmiles, and tires every 5kmiles. Of course I'd guess the above to be in the $12k-$15k depending on how crazy you get with the internals and head, but it'd handle 20+psi and get you into the high 300's and the rest of the car would be able to support it no problem.
Your budget of $5k-$7k (if that doesn't include the car) IMHO isn't doable unless you've got some serious fabrication skills, a major wholesale hookup, or you're willing to take a year and buy everything used and fab half the stuff yourself anyway. It certainly isn't doable on a 1.6. A new GT series turbo is gonna run you $1200 itself... if you're gonna run a T3/T4 and can get it used, maybe $500. Megasquirt+550's will get you there, but 12x12resolution isn't going to leave you with the best tune. Hydra is your ECU... and it's $2k. Bell's manifold is $600 and custom 3" pipe will be another $250 or so. A clutch will be $500. Tires to put the power down will be $800 a set, assuming the car came with wheels to handle 245's or bigger. Your cooling system will run $500. A 1.8dif and LSD is mandatory... figure $700low and $1000 high w/an RX7 LSD. A 6spd tranny is $1k and the 5spd's don't last long either at 300whp.
We haven't talked about the engine yet... but I've done ALL the homework. The minimum effort to build a motor that will handle 300whp is $2500 (MINIMUM) if you do the assembly... and that's skimping on parts... figure $4k for top-quality-**** (minus the stainless valvetrain, but including a full head-job), and $5k if you pay to have it assembled. But it'll last forever.
And then there's the ENORMOUS amount if little things that will eat away at your budget.
OF COURSE, you probably could make 300whp for $6k or so... but it'll be back on jackstands every other week I promise... and the **** you break won't be cheap or quick to fix.
My advice to keep you in budget now is to lower your power goal to 250whp. Forget the '93 and keep your eye out for a '94-'97 w/a Torsen and some work already done to it. Buy the BellS4 kit w/GT2560 and Megasquirt PnP. Get some used RX7 550's and have them cleaned. Run it at 15psi and live with 250whp while you save for a motor rebuild when that one finally blows. Don't forget the clutch.
How I would do it with my money...
'94-'95 good upkeep, and already has the basics... rollbar, shocks, tires/wheels, etc... A decent daily driver with good paint and a clean interior should run about $5k. Mileage unimportant as long as the car is in good shape.
Drivetrain:
1.8 w/forged rods, low compression forged pistons tri-coated, good rings, port&polished '99 head w/coated valves.
ACT XT w/6puck
6-spd tranny
RX7 clutch LSD
Turbo: Begi tubular Manifold w/external wastegate and a GT2860, Tial, 3" full exhaust (investigate GT3071). Standard eBay IC/piping/couplers/intake.
ECU: Hydra w/650's and COP conversion.
Little ****: FM fuel rail, Walbro, Koyo 55mm, coolant reroute, catch-can, pyrometer, water-temp gauge... the list goes on...
Of course I'd need some 245's and the fenders to fit them...
Then turn boost to 20psi... replace oil every 3kmiles, and tires every 5kmiles. Of course I'd guess the above to be in the $12k-$15k depending on how crazy you get with the internals and head, but it'd handle 20+psi and get you into the high 300's and the rest of the car would be able to support it no problem.
Your budget of $5k-$7k (if that doesn't include the car) IMHO isn't doable unless you've got some serious fabrication skills, a major wholesale hookup, or you're willing to take a year and buy everything used and fab half the stuff yourself anyway. It certainly isn't doable on a 1.6. A new GT series turbo is gonna run you $1200 itself... if you're gonna run a T3/T4 and can get it used, maybe $500. Megasquirt+550's will get you there, but 12x12resolution isn't going to leave you with the best tune. Hydra is your ECU... and it's $2k. Bell's manifold is $600 and custom 3" pipe will be another $250 or so. A clutch will be $500. Tires to put the power down will be $800 a set, assuming the car came with wheels to handle 245's or bigger. Your cooling system will run $500. A 1.8dif and LSD is mandatory... figure $700low and $1000 high w/an RX7 LSD. A 6spd tranny is $1k and the 5spd's don't last long either at 300whp.
We haven't talked about the engine yet... but I've done ALL the homework. The minimum effort to build a motor that will handle 300whp is $2500 (MINIMUM) if you do the assembly... and that's skimping on parts... figure $4k for top-quality-**** (minus the stainless valvetrain, but including a full head-job), and $5k if you pay to have it assembled. But it'll last forever.
And then there's the ENORMOUS amount if little things that will eat away at your budget.
OF COURSE, you probably could make 300whp for $6k or so... but it'll be back on jackstands every other week I promise... and the **** you break won't be cheap or quick to fix.
My advice to keep you in budget now is to lower your power goal to 250whp. Forget the '93 and keep your eye out for a '94-'97 w/a Torsen and some work already done to it. Buy the BellS4 kit w/GT2560 and Megasquirt PnP. Get some used RX7 550's and have them cleaned. Run it at 15psi and live with 250whp while you save for a motor rebuild when that one finally blows. Don't forget the clutch.
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Probably outside of your price range unless your going to weld up stuff yourself and do the work (minus machining).
03-23-2008, 08:57 AM
#12
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Nice info thankyou,
the car is going to be weekend driver only,from what you have all told me I think I should lower my goal to 250hp.
-the budget is 5-7k just for the motor,
-im going to take my time on this one I want to biuld a really solid car even if it takes me 2 years.
Is there a direct fit 6 speed tranny?
the car is going to be weekend driver only,from what you have all told me I think I should lower my goal to 250hp.
-the budget is 5-7k just for the motor,
-im going to take my time on this one I want to biuld a really solid car even if it takes me 2 years.
Is there a direct fit 6 speed tranny?
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03-23-2008, 10:05 AM
#14
Yes, from 99 up there was a 6 speed manual transmission option. Direct bolt in. Just don't use one of the starter bolts, but it's fine. You need the shifter and transmission plate that come with the 6 speed as they are unique to it. Speedometer gear attached to it is also nice to have so your speedometer is not off like 5 mph.
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03-23-2008, 11:56 AM
#15
I'm not following you on the budget. When people talk about the price of the "ENGINE", they're usually just talking about the block/head. If that's the case, then you need to look into FM's 2litre stroker kit. It's $4100. Source yourself a '99head and have it done right... but then you're back to your GT3071 and can push 400whp. So, how much money do you have on supporting mods, like cooling, clutch, ecu, fuel, dif, etc...
If you want some help, it's here... but I just need you to be a little more specific about your budget.
We'll go with the premise of 250whp and that you want to rebuild the motor. I'll let you know right off the bat, that the stock 1.8block with a '99 head should be able to make 250whp with ease on a GT25 at around 13-14psi, and probably more like 12psi with a GT28... and it should have some longevity (THAT's WITH A STOCK MOTOR). But, with a high budget like yours, it makes sense to build a motor, run low boost while you slowly upgrade the supporting pieces and then turn up the boost. A 3071 is way overkill for 250whp... even maybe for 300whp... but a GT2860 is the sweetness if you don't want to turn it past about 320-330whp.
Engine:
Forged rods: $500
FM 9.0:1 Wiseco's: $580
ARP Main/Head studs: $250
Rebuilt head, 3angle valve job, coated valves: $500
Adjustable cam gears: $100
FM or Similar rebuild kit: $300-$600
Cleaning/Tanked/Assembly: $600-$800
Total: $+/-3500
That'll get you into the 400whp range for a long time, or 300whp forever.
If the $5k-$7k was just motor, you don't need to spend it all. Another $3500 will get you the ECU and Turbo... another $3500 will get you injectors/Manifold/Wastegate/IC/Piping/BOV/Clutch/Dif/gauges/Cooling/Hoses/Fittings/and most everything else.
The tranny is the next expensive piece... 5spds don't last long when abused at 300whp, but 6spds are known to be OK at that power. However, the 6th gear on the 6spd is a higher ratio than the 5spd... you want to couple the 6spd with a 3.6:1 ring/pinion so 1st and 2nd are still usable.
So tell us the real number that you've budgeted for and we'll start narrowing down your purchasing scheme.
If you want some help, it's here... but I just need you to be a little more specific about your budget.
We'll go with the premise of 250whp and that you want to rebuild the motor. I'll let you know right off the bat, that the stock 1.8block with a '99 head should be able to make 250whp with ease on a GT25 at around 13-14psi, and probably more like 12psi with a GT28... and it should have some longevity (THAT's WITH A STOCK MOTOR). But, with a high budget like yours, it makes sense to build a motor, run low boost while you slowly upgrade the supporting pieces and then turn up the boost. A 3071 is way overkill for 250whp... even maybe for 300whp... but a GT2860 is the sweetness if you don't want to turn it past about 320-330whp.
Engine:
Forged rods: $500
FM 9.0:1 Wiseco's: $580
ARP Main/Head studs: $250
Rebuilt head, 3angle valve job, coated valves: $500
Adjustable cam gears: $100
FM or Similar rebuild kit: $300-$600
Cleaning/Tanked/Assembly: $600-$800
Total: $+/-3500
That'll get you into the 400whp range for a long time, or 300whp forever.
If the $5k-$7k was just motor, you don't need to spend it all. Another $3500 will get you the ECU and Turbo... another $3500 will get you injectors/Manifold/Wastegate/IC/Piping/BOV/Clutch/Dif/gauges/Cooling/Hoses/Fittings/and most everything else.
The tranny is the next expensive piece... 5spds don't last long when abused at 300whp, but 6spds are known to be OK at that power. However, the 6th gear on the 6spd is a higher ratio than the 5spd... you want to couple the 6spd with a 3.6:1 ring/pinion so 1st and 2nd are still usable.
So tell us the real number that you've budgeted for and we'll start narrowing down your purchasing scheme.
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03-23-2008, 10:56 PM
#20
a miata plus 5K=300whp easily...
all you need is to do is use your head
id go with a 94 miata, notjust for the 1.8, but you get the bigger rear end, bigger brakes, and more bracing fomr the factory...IMO, all good things
there are quiet a few people to put down 300 whp on stock motors with the 5spd tranny
do you do any fabbing? if so, get the turbo you want to use and make your own mani/DP and exhaust as well as your own IC piping and get a ebay IC...so far, you are at less than 2K (without the miata)
go with MegaSquirt, its cheap for what it is capable of...
you can hit 300 for much less than 5K, and then later just upgrade what you need (built motor, 6 spd. etc.)
happy boosting
all you need is to do is use your head
id go with a 94 miata, notjust for the 1.8, but you get the bigger rear end, bigger brakes, and more bracing fomr the factory...IMO, all good things
there are quiet a few people to put down 300 whp on stock motors with the 5spd tranny
do you do any fabbing? if so, get the turbo you want to use and make your own mani/DP and exhaust as well as your own IC piping and get a ebay IC...so far, you are at less than 2K (without the miata)
go with MegaSquirt, its cheap for what it is capable of...
you can hit 300 for much less than 5K, and then later just upgrade what you need (built motor, 6 spd. etc.)
happy boosting
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