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The Dedicated URABUS Thread
09-24-2014, 12:44 PM
#341
I've obviously seen less pro maps than you, but all the ones I see come in with, "my car idles funny when x, y, and z are the conditions. I paid tuner b some large sum of money for him to tune it a couple hours and he said everything is fine." Answer is normally, never speak to that person again and start a new tune from scratch because its a disaster. Or there's the tuners I actually know which are well respected and literally just have a stash of tune that they flash and charge the same money as what an actual "pro tune" would cost.
Maybe you've got some good ones, and some of that new stuff sounds nifty. But it really comes down to only a few simple things you need to play with for the majority of the tuning.
Adding the standard fixes that you can either copy and paste or actually learn and understand (knock strategy, open loop delay removal, etc)
commanded fuel
the two types of spark advance tables and how you want to implement it
sorting out commanded torque the throttle control and boost control combo
and adjusting the boost control tables
Beyond that there isnt much to deal with or much to screw up until you start replacing intakes, going to bigger turbos, switching to speed density, etc. As complex as a lot of the control strategies are for boost and knock, they're fairly easy to deal with.
And the engine is just like any other engine. There's a delicate balance of boost, fuel, and spark, and there's more than one way to mix em up. I refuse to tune richer than 11:1 unless its absolutely required because it just kills flame front speed way too much. And I'm not afraid to dial up north of 12:1 when a tiny turbo is running out of steam and not producing enough mass flow to warrant the extra fuel. All of my subaru tuning has been with WRX's and I wouldnt lean an STi out nearly as much.
There's also a lot of acceptable starting points and things to study and look at in the tuning repository on rom raider forums. They get even more technical about tuning over there than we do in the megasquirt section. And thats a good thing. With their help getting associated with the minor quirks of the subaru ecu and already a back ground in tuning, you quickly come to realize how easy it is to tune these cars.
Maybe you've got some good ones, and some of that new stuff sounds nifty. But it really comes down to only a few simple things you need to play with for the majority of the tuning.
Adding the standard fixes that you can either copy and paste or actually learn and understand (knock strategy, open loop delay removal, etc)
commanded fuel
the two types of spark advance tables and how you want to implement it
sorting out commanded torque the throttle control and boost control combo
and adjusting the boost control tables
Beyond that there isnt much to deal with or much to screw up until you start replacing intakes, going to bigger turbos, switching to speed density, etc. As complex as a lot of the control strategies are for boost and knock, they're fairly easy to deal with.
And the engine is just like any other engine. There's a delicate balance of boost, fuel, and spark, and there's more than one way to mix em up. I refuse to tune richer than 11:1 unless its absolutely required because it just kills flame front speed way too much. And I'm not afraid to dial up north of 12:1 when a tiny turbo is running out of steam and not producing enough mass flow to warrant the extra fuel. All of my subaru tuning has been with WRX's and I wouldnt lean an STi out nearly as much.
There's also a lot of acceptable starting points and things to study and look at in the tuning repository on rom raider forums. They get even more technical about tuning over there than we do in the megasquirt section. And thats a good thing. With their help getting associated with the minor quirks of the subaru ecu and already a back ground in tuning, you quickly come to realize how easy it is to tune these cars.
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09-24-2014, 12:59 PM
#342
I'm gonna break this down:
I've obviously seen less pro maps than you, but all the ones I see come in with, "my car idles funny when x, y, and z are the conditions. I paid tuner b some large sum of money for him to tune it a couple hours and he said everything is fine." Answer is normally, never speak to that person again and start a new tune from scratch because its a disaster. Or there's the tuners I actually know which are well respected and literally just have a stash of tune that they flash and charge the same money as what an actual "pro tune" would cost.
Sounds like you just saw lazy tunes or problematic cars or laptop warriors pretending to be tuners. Most kids take the car in with boost leaks, all sorts of issues, questionable hardware/parts, and then expect it all to be TUNED OUT........LOL
Maybe you've got some good ones, and some of that new stuff sounds nifty. But it really comes down to only a few simple things you need to play with for the majority of the tuning.
Adding the standard fixes that you can either copy and paste or actually learn and understand (knock strategy, open loop delay removal, etc)
commanded fuel
the two types of spark advance tables and how you want to implement it
sorting out commanded torque the throttle control and boost control combo
and adjusting the boost control tables
you do realize there are a TONN of other years and models that use the EJ25x right? Meaning - your 2006 wrx wagon rom is about the simplest 32bit rom there is, and there are many others with many more features and tables requiring more attention to detail. What you're talking about is tuning the MOST BASIC stage 1 or 2 on a 2006-2007 wrx. Have you seen other roms? There are way more than 2 spark tables, and fuel tables, and AVCS referenced tables and DBW reference tables....and I won't even go into the compensation tables like boost comps, timing comps, knock comps, etc etc etc......I could keep going
Beyond that there isnt much to deal with or much to screw up until you start replacing intakes, going to bigger turbos, switching to speed density, etc. As complex as a lot of the control strategies are for boost and knock, they're fairly easy to deal with.
Again, you're talking about a basic stage1 or 2 at the most, and even then I would mostly disagree unless you were going for a "like OTS cobb" tune
And the engine is just like any other engine. There's a delicate balance of boost, fuel, and spark, and there's more than one way to mix em up. I refuse to tune richer than 11:1 unless its absolutely required because it just kills flame front speed way too much. And I'm not afraid to dial up north of 12:1 when a tiny turbo is running out of steam and not producing enough mass flow to warrant the extra fuel. All of my subaru tuning has been with WRX's and I wouldnt lean an STi out nearly as much.
NO IT FRIGGEN ISN'T. I can do all sorts of crazy things on a 4G63 and it will take it and ask for more, I make one mistake on a EJ and it goes berzerk. I don't immediately correct the mistake or let it happen badly enough, and now the piston ringlands are fried, or I have rod knock, or I have cracked valves. Miata's are easy like the evo too - you keep throwing boost fuel and timing at it until you get to mbt or run into knock, back off and call it a day (speaking very crudely)
There's also a lot of acceptable starting points and things to study and look at in the tuning repository on rom raider forums. They get even more technical about tuning over there than we do in the megasquirt section. And thats a good thing. With their help getting associated with the minor quirks of the subaru ecu and already a back ground in tuning, you quickly come to realize how easy it is to tune these cars.
This I can sorta agree on - EXCEPT that there is also a TON of really bad info and advice too, so if you don't sift through the garbage or have a good undersanding of what you're trying to do, you can have a really bad time.
Sounds like you just saw lazy tunes or problematic cars or laptop warriors pretending to be tuners. Most kids take the car in with boost leaks, all sorts of issues, questionable hardware/parts, and then expect it all to be TUNED OUT........LOL
Maybe you've got some good ones, and some of that new stuff sounds nifty. But it really comes down to only a few simple things you need to play with for the majority of the tuning.
Adding the standard fixes that you can either copy and paste or actually learn and understand (knock strategy, open loop delay removal, etc)
commanded fuel
the two types of spark advance tables and how you want to implement it
sorting out commanded torque the throttle control and boost control combo
and adjusting the boost control tables
you do realize there are a TONN of other years and models that use the EJ25x right? Meaning - your 2006 wrx wagon rom is about the simplest 32bit rom there is, and there are many others with many more features and tables requiring more attention to detail. What you're talking about is tuning the MOST BASIC stage 1 or 2 on a 2006-2007 wrx. Have you seen other roms? There are way more than 2 spark tables, and fuel tables, and AVCS referenced tables and DBW reference tables....and I won't even go into the compensation tables like boost comps, timing comps, knock comps, etc etc etc......I could keep going
Beyond that there isnt much to deal with or much to screw up until you start replacing intakes, going to bigger turbos, switching to speed density, etc. As complex as a lot of the control strategies are for boost and knock, they're fairly easy to deal with.
Again, you're talking about a basic stage1 or 2 at the most, and even then I would mostly disagree unless you were going for a "like OTS cobb" tune
And the engine is just like any other engine. There's a delicate balance of boost, fuel, and spark, and there's more than one way to mix em up. I refuse to tune richer than 11:1 unless its absolutely required because it just kills flame front speed way too much. And I'm not afraid to dial up north of 12:1 when a tiny turbo is running out of steam and not producing enough mass flow to warrant the extra fuel. All of my subaru tuning has been with WRX's and I wouldnt lean an STi out nearly as much.
NO IT FRIGGEN ISN'T. I can do all sorts of crazy things on a 4G63 and it will take it and ask for more, I make one mistake on a EJ and it goes berzerk. I don't immediately correct the mistake or let it happen badly enough, and now the piston ringlands are fried, or I have rod knock, or I have cracked valves. Miata's are easy like the evo too - you keep throwing boost fuel and timing at it until you get to mbt or run into knock, back off and call it a day (speaking very crudely)
There's also a lot of acceptable starting points and things to study and look at in the tuning repository on rom raider forums. They get even more technical about tuning over there than we do in the megasquirt section. And thats a good thing. With their help getting associated with the minor quirks of the subaru ecu and already a back ground in tuning, you quickly come to realize how easy it is to tune these cars.
This I can sorta agree on - EXCEPT that there is also a TON of really bad info and advice too, so if you don't sift through the garbage or have a good undersanding of what you're trying to do, you can have a really bad time.
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09-24-2014, 01:13 PM
#343
Elite Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Cedar City, UT
Posts: 2,764
Total Cats: 951
Leafy, you know a lot of ****, most of which I don't know is correct or not. But anytime you post ****, all I get from it is a tone of condescension and brashness in how you reply to us, as your tone indicates, "less educated swine".
Feel free to give input, but I think most of us agree that you come off as a pretentious *******(and this is MT.net!!!) when you remark on things. I've appreciated some of your input in the past, but it is far and few between. Try less keyboard warrior, and more helpful, normal opinions on matters.
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Also, I'm trying to convince my brother to go equal length headers on his MY15 STI, but he doesn't want to because it sounds like a "civic". I know that performance wise, they have an edge, but how big is the gain over the normal unequal lengths?
I honestly think it sounds pretty good, but I need to look at some youtube videos, since it has been a while since I've heard one.
Feel free to give input, but I think most of us agree that you come off as a pretentious *******(and this is MT.net!!!) when you remark on things. I've appreciated some of your input in the past, but it is far and few between. Try less keyboard warrior, and more helpful, normal opinions on matters.
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Also, I'm trying to convince my brother to go equal length headers on his MY15 STI, but he doesn't want to because it sounds like a "civic". I know that performance wise, they have an edge, but how big is the gain over the normal unequal lengths?
I honestly think it sounds pretty good, but I need to look at some youtube videos, since it has been a while since I've heard one.
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09-24-2014, 01:17 PM
#344
I missed AVCS there, I never found all that much with it beyond the same maps that everyone else use. And yes there are more than 2 spark tables even in the 06-07 tune, but they're more or less the same or actually called upon by the ecu rarely. And besides a couple ecu's similar to mine I've tuned some 16bit stuff as well. And the car in question that we're talking about is an 05 STi, also one of the simplest of the 32bit ecus.
And I am talking about a simple st1 or st2 tune, but better than the silly cobb one that doesnt correct the knock control strategy, has crappy DBW performance.
I never said that the subaru engine was just as resilient than the 4g63, its not. But the same concepts apply to any engine. Though the EJ doesnt have nearly as much leeway, doesnt take much knock to kill them. That doesnt mean to be afraid, it means you just have to be cautious. There's enough good tunes that dont knock floating around the RR forums to get you up to speed real fast on what acceptable amounts of timing look like. And you can try new things from there, but normally there isnt much further you can go with timing at and after peak torque on any subaru tune I've seen, but north of 5k a lot of people taper timing off just when it needs to come on. Something something I'm smarter than everyone else haha, *****.
And I am talking about a simple st1 or st2 tune, but better than the silly cobb one that doesnt correct the knock control strategy, has crappy DBW performance.
I never said that the subaru engine was just as resilient than the 4g63, its not. But the same concepts apply to any engine. Though the EJ doesnt have nearly as much leeway, doesnt take much knock to kill them. That doesnt mean to be afraid, it means you just have to be cautious. There's enough good tunes that dont knock floating around the RR forums to get you up to speed real fast on what acceptable amounts of timing look like. And you can try new things from there, but normally there isnt much further you can go with timing at and after peak torque on any subaru tune I've seen, but north of 5k a lot of people taper timing off just when it needs to come on. Something something I'm smarter than everyone else haha, *****.
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09-24-2014, 01:22 PM
#345
Equal length vs unequal. I really want to say, yes equal is so much better do it. But then you look at actual dynos of a bunch or cars or even comparisons and well, its not all that impressive of a difference. Well except for the killerB holy header, but **** thats expensive. For the same money you can practically buy everything to do a twin scroll 20gTD06SL2 conversion from Kinuwaga. The equal length stuff doesnt sound as bad as he makes it out to be IMHE.
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09-24-2014, 01:30 PM
#346
Leafy - I'm not gonna keep going with the pissing match cause it's clear you know what I'm talking about, if anything I just get my jimmies rustled when you spout off about something being easy when you have not tuned more than your own super simple car and setup, and just rambling about hypothetical crap and theories and stuff no one cares about because you yourself don't even really comprehend them. Then we start seeing threads/posts like "guys I started tuning my car and there is this noise and smoke coming from the engine, can it be tuned out? herp derp
Its easy to just say something is easy. Its the internet, we're all pro's.
moving along:
Jeff,
Equal is better in every way - faster spool, better cyl heat and pressure distribution (read: safer on your pistons), lighter, anddddddddd here's the kicker: most don't sound like civics.
I recommend KillerBee, FullRace, and TigWerks, of the common ones. They are all over 1k. I recommend NONE of the other ss304 crap. Ever. Not perrin, not invidia, none of that gayness. ITs all about materials used. 321 is king, 316 with some special blend of something (forgot what Full race calls it) is also good. I always laugh when someone calls the perrin or tomei or invidia a "quality header".
The gains on a dyno don't often tell the whole story with an ELH, and make it seem like a waste of money. I would disagree with that too. Better response, harder onset, and after you upgrade the turbo it gets even more beneficial.
Leafy's argument about $$ of a quality ELH vs buying a bigger turbo is actually one I struggle with too. On one hand - yes you can buy a billet wheeled blouch or something else just as nice and make more power overall. On the other hand - if you're on a budget that you can't afford both if need be, tehn you probably shouldn't do either one.
Hope that makes sense.
Its easy to just say something is easy. Its the internet, we're all pro's.
moving along:
Jeff,
Equal is better in every way - faster spool, better cyl heat and pressure distribution (read: safer on your pistons), lighter, anddddddddd here's the kicker: most don't sound like civics.
I recommend KillerBee, FullRace, and TigWerks, of the common ones. They are all over 1k. I recommend NONE of the other ss304 crap. Ever. Not perrin, not invidia, none of that gayness. ITs all about materials used. 321 is king, 316 with some special blend of something (forgot what Full race calls it) is also good. I always laugh when someone calls the perrin or tomei or invidia a "quality header".
The gains on a dyno don't often tell the whole story with an ELH, and make it seem like a waste of money. I would disagree with that too. Better response, harder onset, and after you upgrade the turbo it gets even more beneficial.
Leafy's argument about $$ of a quality ELH vs buying a bigger turbo is actually one I struggle with too. On one hand - yes you can buy a billet wheeled blouch or something else just as nice and make more power overall. On the other hand - if you're on a budget that you can't afford both if need be, tehn you probably shouldn't do either one.
Hope that makes sense.
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09-24-2014, 02:00 PM
#347
Newb
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 27
Total Cats: 1
Leafy, you know a lot of ****, most of which I don't know is correct or not. But anytime you post ****, all I get from it is a tone of condescension and brashness in how you reply to us, as your tone indicates, "less educated swine".
Feel free to give input, but I think most of us agree that you come off as a pretentious *******(and this is MT.net!!!) when you remark on things. I've appreciated some of your input in the past, but it is far and few between. Try less keyboard warrior, and more helpful, normal opinions on matters.
-
-
-
-
Also, I'm trying to convince my brother to go equal length headers on his MY15 STI, but he doesn't want to because it sounds like a "civic". I know that performance wise, they have an edge, but how big is the gain over the normal unequal lengths?
I honestly think it sounds pretty good, but I need to look at some youtube videos, since it has been a while since I've heard one.
Feel free to give input, but I think most of us agree that you come off as a pretentious *******(and this is MT.net!!!) when you remark on things. I've appreciated some of your input in the past, but it is far and few between. Try less keyboard warrior, and more helpful, normal opinions on matters.
-
-
-
-
Also, I'm trying to convince my brother to go equal length headers on his MY15 STI, but he doesn't want to because it sounds like a "civic". I know that performance wise, they have an edge, but how big is the gain over the normal unequal lengths?
I honestly think it sounds pretty good, but I need to look at some youtube videos, since it has been a while since I've heard one.
Leafy - I'm not gonna keep going with the pissing match cause it's clear you know what I'm talking about, if anything I just get my jimmies rustled when you spout off about something being easy when you have not tuned more than your own super simple car and setup, and just rambling about hypothetical crap and theories and stuff no one cares about because you yourself don't even really comprehend them. Then we start seeing threads/posts like "guys I started tuning my car and there is this noise and smoke coming from the engine, can it be tuned out? herp derp
Its easy to just say something is easy. Its the internet, we're all pro's.
moving along:
Jeff,
Equal is better in every way - faster spool, better cyl heat and pressure distribution (read: safer on your pistons), lighter, anddddddddd here's the kicker: most don't sound like civics.
I recommend KillerBee, FullRace, and TigWerks, of the common ones. They are all over 1k. I recommend NONE of the other ss304 crap. Ever. Not perrin, not invidia, none of that gayness. ITs all about materials used. 321 is king, 316 with some special blend of something (forgot what Full race calls it) is also good. I always laugh when someone calls the perrin or tomei or invidia a "quality header".
The gains on a dyno don't often tell the whole story with an ELH, and make it seem like a waste of money. I would disagree with that too. Better response, harder onset, and after you upgrade the turbo it gets even more beneficial.
Leafy's argument about $$ of a quality ELH vs buying a bigger turbo is actually one I struggle with too. On one hand - yes you can buy a billet wheeled blouch or something else just as nice and make more power overall. On the other hand - if you're on a budget that you can't afford both if need be, tehn you probably shouldn't do either one.
Hope that makes sense.
Its easy to just say something is easy. Its the internet, we're all pro's.
moving along:
Jeff,
Equal is better in every way - faster spool, better cyl heat and pressure distribution (read: safer on your pistons), lighter, anddddddddd here's the kicker: most don't sound like civics.
I recommend KillerBee, FullRace, and TigWerks, of the common ones. They are all over 1k. I recommend NONE of the other ss304 crap. Ever. Not perrin, not invidia, none of that gayness. ITs all about materials used. 321 is king, 316 with some special blend of something (forgot what Full race calls it) is also good. I always laugh when someone calls the perrin or tomei or invidia a "quality header".
The gains on a dyno don't often tell the whole story with an ELH, and make it seem like a waste of money. I would disagree with that too. Better response, harder onset, and after you upgrade the turbo it gets even more beneficial.
Leafy's argument about $$ of a quality ELH vs buying a bigger turbo is actually one I struggle with too. On one hand - yes you can buy a billet wheeled blouch or something else just as nice and make more power overall. On the other hand - if you're on a budget that you can't afford both if need be, tehn you probably shouldn't do either one.
Hope that makes sense.
As someone that has a 11 STi and has a ELH i can tell you on my stock turbo car I made about 20whp and 50ft/tq. Just for the torque alone it was worth it.
Turbo spool is faster and more progressive, meaning that I can tip in part throttle and not get that sudden neck snap as all of a sudden the pulse waves hit the turbo just right..
and my car doesn't sound like a civic.
Old video:
Drive Video:
Newer exhaust video:
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09-24-2014, 02:07 PM
#348
You really hate the 304 options that much? According to teh internetz even the cheapy shitty ebay ones average a year or two before they crack. Which is doing WAY better than we (miata) do with the same type manifold. And there are some nearly sch10 thickness subie manifolds out there. 321 and 316Ti are the proper materials to make a turbo manifold from though, its hard to stomach the price when you can pay someone to build you a sch40 304 manifold for not much more than just the cost of material for a 16ga 321 manifold. But yeah the manifold is worth spending the money on. To not have to think about it. Just funny you dont hold the same opinion with miata manifolds which have the same problems.
What your opinion on getting an OEM twin scroll take off header instead and using the VF40 or even one of the cheaper aftermarket turbos instead. No one seems to post about it on the tubes if they do do it at all. So many of the engines with those setups are sold on ebay, certainly there's a bunch of those manifolds and turbo floating around state side.
What your opinion on getting an OEM twin scroll take off header instead and using the VF40 or even one of the cheaper aftermarket turbos instead. No one seems to post about it on the tubes if they do do it at all. So many of the engines with those setups are sold on ebay, certainly there's a bunch of those manifolds and turbo floating around state side.
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09-24-2014, 02:08 PM
#349
As someone that has a 11 STi and has a ELH i can tell you on my stock turbo car I made about 20whp and 50ft/tq. Just for the torque alone it was worth it.
Turbo spool is faster and more progressive, meaning that I can tip in part throttle and not get that sudden neck snap as all of a sudden the pulse waves hit the turbo just right..
and my car doesn't sound like a civic.
Turbo spool is faster and more progressive, meaning that I can tip in part throttle and not get that sudden neck snap as all of a sudden the pulse waves hit the turbo just right..
and my car doesn't sound like a civic.
I like my Full Race, but considering the KB next only cause I love the design.
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09-24-2014, 02:12 PM
#350
You really hate the 304 options that much? According to teh internetz even the cheapy shitty ebay ones average a year or two before they crack. Which is doing WAY better than we (miata) do with the same type manifold. And there are some nearly sch10 thickness subie manifolds out there. 321 and 316Ti are the proper materials to make a turbo manifold from though, its hard to stomach the price when you can pay someone to build you a sch40 304 manifold for not much more than just the cost of material for a 16ga 321 manifold. But yeah the manifold is worth spending the money on. To not have to think about it. Just funny you dont hold the same opinion with miata manifolds which have the same problems.
What your opinion on getting an OEM twin scroll take off header instead and using the VF40 or even one of the cheaper aftermarket turbos instead. No one seems to post about it on the tubes if they do do it at all. So many of the engines with those setups are sold on ebay, certainly there's a bunch of those manifolds and turbo floating around state side.
What your opinion on getting an OEM twin scroll take off header instead and using the VF40 or even one of the cheaper aftermarket turbos instead. No one seems to post about it on the tubes if they do do it at all. So many of the engines with those setups are sold on ebay, certainly there's a bunch of those manifolds and turbo floating around state side.
On a 2L, I'd do it for sure.
And screw that steamspeed rtard selling kinugawa churbos on nabisco for name brand money. Screw him right in the face.
You should go check out his thread in PPB, I've been trolling him recently
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anyway 
09-24-2014, 02:52 PM
#356
To be fair, the turbo they're talking about being that expensive is a genuine garrett BB bearing housing and turbine wheel, with a billet compressor wheel designed by a company that makes a lot of OEM turbos and parts with a subaru specific turbine housing on it thats probably made in the same place as all the other subaru specific turbine housings for garretts.
Or course, even name brand garretts are made in china so...
Or course, even name brand garretts are made in china so...
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09-25-2014, 10:17 AM
#358
Elite Member
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Taos, New mexico
Posts: 6,598
Total Cats: 561
Got new tires on the Foz-Rod, and I love them so far. Yokohoma Geolander at-s. I went next size up from stock, 1" bigger overall diameter. Perfect fit, and the grip is amazing on dirt roads. Can't wait to test 'em out in the snow.
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