Drifting retartedness must stop!
06-09-2008, 02:27 PM
#21
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Nope, it's too true. Now, most people probably aren't running this kind of set up. If you have the power to spin tires then you want everything else in the system to provide grip where it can to achieve speed and control.
1.5 way difs are proffered (by some) over 2 way.
Soft rear springs proffered over stiff
Large front sway bars over small
Obnoxiously sized aero wings for high speed to keep rear planted.
I could go on, but again, no everyone is going to think this way and not everyone has the kind of power to spin tires with everything else acting against them. It's the best way to get high smoke with lots of speed.
1.5 way difs are proffered (by some) over 2 way.
Soft rear springs proffered over stiff
Large front sway bars over small
Obnoxiously sized aero wings for high speed to keep rear planted.
I could go on, but again, no everyone is going to think this way and not everyone has the kind of power to spin tires with everything else acting against them. It's the best way to get high smoke with lots of speed.
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06-09-2008, 05:15 PM
#26
A big percentage of people with bikes, shouldn't be allowed to ride them. Both my brothers have for over 20 years, but they don't do stupid **** like that.
I swear to god if a biker ever hit into me while doing something like that, I'd have to control my anger from beating his life out of him.
-1 to all those guys that feel the need to do that **** out on public roads.
Vash-
I swear to god if a biker ever hit into me while doing something like that, I'd have to control my anger from beating his life out of him.
-1 to all those guys that feel the need to do that **** out on public roads.
Vash-
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06-09-2008, 05:40 PM
#27
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aero is typically accepted to work at speeds above 60 mph, whether it's at its maximum down force i'd say is another issue. At Road Atlanta the fastest entry speed clocked by Vaughn Gittin Jr. was something like 95 mph on the first turn.
I don't really know what to tell you about why it works, other than throttle down with 400hp in 2nd gear is gonna roast tires, and it's gonna roast them better than riding on maxed camber on the edge of the tire or with the pressure inflated too high. Those are tricks used by those who don't quite have everything down or don't have the power output. The inflated PSI on tires IMO is preferable over wearing only the inside shoulder with camber, plus you can just change the tires out and drive the car on the street. But lets not kid ourselves, its about style too, so people will tend to run camber, because it looks good...I find it dumb. I can see a little bit of camber, and it'd in fact help because the contact patch will increase during a turn but too much is just flashy and improper. Lowering the car too much also is adverser for camber, while I think low is better for center of gravity, ability to stay flat in the turn and for appearance. It requires getting new upper control arms (for the miata anyway..) so you can adjust out the camber to something proper. Caster is probably the only thing that'd seem off to most road race settings. You want to max the caster as much as you can without messing with the camber too much. Increasing the caster is to get the wheel to return quicker. Toe, well typically people are a bit wary to play with the toe, because of how much it can adversely affect the car. However, I'd say if I wasn't gonna drive my car on the street, my alignment settings would probably be something up to 1mm of Toe Out in the front with 1mm of Toe In in the back.
Let me see if I can find some alignment specs that are floating around out there. They are a bit hard to track down because they are kinda like guarded secrets.
I don't really know what to tell you about why it works, other than throttle down with 400hp in 2nd gear is gonna roast tires, and it's gonna roast them better than riding on maxed camber on the edge of the tire or with the pressure inflated too high. Those are tricks used by those who don't quite have everything down or don't have the power output. The inflated PSI on tires IMO is preferable over wearing only the inside shoulder with camber, plus you can just change the tires out and drive the car on the street. But lets not kid ourselves, its about style too, so people will tend to run camber, because it looks good...I find it dumb. I can see a little bit of camber, and it'd in fact help because the contact patch will increase during a turn but too much is just flashy and improper. Lowering the car too much also is adverser for camber, while I think low is better for center of gravity, ability to stay flat in the turn and for appearance. It requires getting new upper control arms (for the miata anyway..) so you can adjust out the camber to something proper. Caster is probably the only thing that'd seem off to most road race settings. You want to max the caster as much as you can without messing with the camber too much. Increasing the caster is to get the wheel to return quicker. Toe, well typically people are a bit wary to play with the toe, because of how much it can adversely affect the car. However, I'd say if I wasn't gonna drive my car on the street, my alignment settings would probably be something up to 1mm of Toe Out in the front with 1mm of Toe In in the back.
Let me see if I can find some alignment specs that are floating around out there. They are a bit hard to track down because they are kinda like guarded secrets.
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06-09-2008, 05:55 PM
#28
Really what you're looking to adjust on the front end of a drift or dirt oval car is KPI (king pin inclination).
Caster is a very pleasant thing to have. If you have alot of it it will help the car snap very fast in transitions and aid in self recovery, reducing spins and making the car easier to drive, also in low speed corners it will aid in adding oversteer. It is highly recommended at the beginner and intermediate level, especially in spin prone short wheel base cars.
However there is a significant drawback once your skills develop to the point of high speed tandem.
The following picture is a perfect demonstration.
Notice the front left tire, what should be the most loaded front tire, where the weight should be transfered to, and where a large amount of your ultimate lat and long grip should be coming from.
Both caster and scrub radius help the steering wheel self center. Rhys runs alot of caster in the solstice but used really low caster in the GTO, Hogan and Cook ran alot of caster in their vipers. Kumakubo, I'd imagine is pretty close to 0.
Scrub radius can be easily changed with low offset wheels or spacers. But caster has a much greater effect on self centering.
See if adding caster gets you a better feel. Since the geometry of production cars aren't designed to drift from the factory it's a balance, between an easier car to drive or one with higher ultimate limits.
But keep in mind the image above, if you add too much caster, the loaded front tire will loose alot of negative camber as the steering lock increases.
However to throw one more thing into the mix, this assumes your rear toe isn't out, or in the case of mr2s toes out on throttle lift. Which makes any car spin happy. A slight toe in is desired for rear, which will help the car stabalize itself under throttle.
Caster is a very pleasant thing to have. If you have alot of it it will help the car snap very fast in transitions and aid in self recovery, reducing spins and making the car easier to drive, also in low speed corners it will aid in adding oversteer. It is highly recommended at the beginner and intermediate level, especially in spin prone short wheel base cars.
However there is a significant drawback once your skills develop to the point of high speed tandem.
The following picture is a perfect demonstration.
Notice the front left tire, what should be the most loaded front tire, where the weight should be transfered to, and where a large amount of your ultimate lat and long grip should be coming from.
Both caster and scrub radius help the steering wheel self center. Rhys runs alot of caster in the solstice but used really low caster in the GTO, Hogan and Cook ran alot of caster in their vipers. Kumakubo, I'd imagine is pretty close to 0.
Scrub radius can be easily changed with low offset wheels or spacers. But caster has a much greater effect on self centering.
See if adding caster gets you a better feel. Since the geometry of production cars aren't designed to drift from the factory it's a balance, between an easier car to drive or one with higher ultimate limits.
But keep in mind the image above, if you add too much caster, the loaded front tire will loose alot of negative camber as the steering lock increases.
However to throw one more thing into the mix, this assumes your rear toe isn't out, or in the case of mr2s toes out on throttle lift. Which makes any car spin happy. A slight toe in is desired for rear, which will help the car stabalize itself under throttle.
Last edited by BenR; 06-09-2008 at 06:24 PM.
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06-09-2008, 05:58 PM
#29
Drift aero
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_109940/article.html
The most effective cheating bastard rear wing used in competitive drifting to date. Check out the lexan pieces.
Autocrossers are actually seeing solid measured gains from splitters, wings, and airdams. Most of thoes courses are about the same speeds as most amatuer drift courses. This is in production cars. The top speed of most World of Outlaw short tracks the top speed is at or below 80mph. According to the old posts from Moti a 9" airdam on the back trunk of a 200whp miata is worth over a second at the very low speed Streets of Willow. If it didn't work Rhys wouldn't have done it, and it wouldn't have been made illegal. Also I can see a pressure of 2 inches of water on my hood at as low a speed as 20mph.
The most effective cheating bastard rear wing used in competitive drifting to date. Check out the lexan pieces.
Autocrossers are actually seeing solid measured gains from splitters, wings, and airdams. Most of thoes courses are about the same speeds as most amatuer drift courses. This is in production cars. The top speed of most World of Outlaw short tracks the top speed is at or below 80mph. According to the old posts from Moti a 9" airdam on the back trunk of a 200whp miata is worth over a second at the very low speed Streets of Willow. If it didn't work Rhys wouldn't have done it, and it wouldn't have been made illegal. Also I can see a pressure of 2 inches of water on my hood at as low a speed as 20mph.
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06-09-2008, 06:19 PM
#31
I had one kid one time come sliding at me playing drifting or mario karting or whatever the **** he was doing in a 240. Sliding in both lanes, the look of sheer terror on his face was nearly priceless when he realized he was either going to go off roading in that piece of **** or get cut in half by a hummer doing 45. It was extremely satisfying watching him launch out of a ditch nosefirst into a tree.
I didn't bother stopping to see if he need help or was still breathing, the douche,he almost made me drop my 7 layer burrito. Actually the only thought I really had was wondering how bad hot sauce will burn in your eyes when the airbag blows this burrito in my face.
It's amazing the stupidest **** you think of at the wrong time.
I didn't bother stopping to see if he need help or was still breathing, the douche,he almost made me drop my 7 layer burrito. Actually the only thought I really had was wondering how bad hot sauce will burn in your eyes when the airbag blows this burrito in my face.
It's amazing the stupidest **** you think of at the wrong time.
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06-09-2008, 07:57 PM
#37
ha, ha ha. I love these threads. Acutally just yesterday i won the season opener of US Drift at Old Dominion speedway in manassas. I was the lone miata. Using all my 197whp of fury tearing up the banks. But like i would honestly say 90% of all drivers there first drift was on the street. thats where mine was, Some people just dont pick the best times to do it. I for one learned pretty quick by meeting a couple nice officers.
Alignment and traction has always been a task. Everyone with 240s run lots of caster upwards of 6.5/7deg. Camber also upwards of -3. I for one just ran on -3.6camber 5.5 caster 1/4 deg total toe out in the front(for turn in) neutral rear toe and 2.6 rear camber. Like MXeva said lots of people are running softer springs in the rear, no rear sway because they are making the power to spin the wheels reguardless and need the traction to have the speed.
Alignment and traction has always been a task. Everyone with 240s run lots of caster upwards of 6.5/7deg. Camber also upwards of -3. I for one just ran on -3.6camber 5.5 caster 1/4 deg total toe out in the front(for turn in) neutral rear toe and 2.6 rear camber. Like MXeva said lots of people are running softer springs in the rear, no rear sway because they are making the power to spin the wheels reguardless and need the traction to have the speed.
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06-10-2008, 06:00 AM
#38
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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"Winning" in a drift competition is about as meaningless as "winning" in figure skating. I guess if it's your thing, fine, but calling it "winning", you didn't finish first, you just looked more pretty than the other guy doing it.
Mark
Mark
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