How (and why) to Ramble On your domestic shorthair - Page 1123 - Miata Turbo Forum -Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 06-11-2015, 08:03 PM   #22441
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I'd post logs showing 250* temps in boost, but that would be considered hateful because I used megasquirt to record

...I shoulda just drove my car
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:19 PM   #22442
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Hold up, this actually makes some sense. Check this out...

Tom can't figure out how to MS so he takes it to a tuner, same advice we give to noobs all the time. Tuner tries their best to put a safe and stable tune on the car but just cannot make power with the insane IATs this thing is cranking out. The tuner isn't willing to throw caution to the wind and burn a piston so the car now makes less power than the p-p-powercard + ecool mess. Tom declares victory and announces to the world that his piggyback system is better than an MS based solely on the numbers.

I mean, I just made that up but in this situation its a completely believable chain of events.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:20 PM   #22443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Hold up, this actually makes some sense. Check this out...

Tom can't figure out how to MS so he takes it to a tuner, same advice we give to noobs all the time. Tuner tries their best to put a safe and stable tune on the car but just cannot make power with the insane IATs this thing is cranking out. The tuner isn't willing to throw caution to the wind and burn a piston so the car now makes less power than the p-p-powercard + ecool mess. Tom declares victory and announces to the world that his piggyback system is better than an MS based solely on the numbers.

I mean, I just made that up but in this situation its a completely believable chain of events.

Add in a side of tuner who doesn't know Miatas and/or Megasquirt and we've got a winner.


Also see: Why if i put Megasquirt on my MX6, it will be slower. Why? Because if i KNOW the thing is eating ****, i'll make it not eat ****. If i don't know? It'll continue to eat ****.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:25 PM   #22444
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Any tuner worth their salt knows what a sensible AFR looks like and is going to balk at a 250 IAT. All you can do is make it fatter and start backing down the timing to preserve the motor and that's not going to make power.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:45 PM   #22445
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I shouldn't do this, I know he's not going to be able to explain what they did while trying to tune this thing with an MS on it.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:56 PM   #22446
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I cannot believe what an arrogant douchebag he is.

Perhaps I can get myself banned.
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:00 PM   #22447
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What the actual ****.
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:04 PM   #22448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Hold up, this actually makes some sense. Check this out...

Tom can't figure out how to MS so he takes it to a tuner, same advice we give to noobs all the time. Tuner tries their best to put a safe and stable tune on the car but just cannot make power with the insane IATs this thing is cranking out. The tuner isn't willing to throw caution to the wind and burn a piston so the car now makes less power than the p-p-powercard + ecool mess. Tom declares victory and announces to the world that his piggyback system is better than an MS based solely on the numbers.

I mean, I just made that up but in this situation its a completely believable chain of events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Any tuner worth their salt knows what a sensible AFR looks like and is going to balk at a 250 IAT. All you can do is make it fatter and start backing down the timing to preserve the motor and that's not going to make power.

Still though...MBT doesn't happen at unhealthy conditions, right? Yes, a "safe" street tune might not get every last bit of power available, but a carefully tuned, healthy engine should still produce more power than his piggyback mess.

I think he's just full of **** and it's not even worth trying to explain his claim of MS FFS cars producing less power. He's as likely to be misrepresenting the truth if not outright lying about it. He's painting himself into a corner now with his BS marketing speak claims about ecool. He just flatly stated that MS cars can't (can't! CAN'T!!) make more power than his piggybacks.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:36 PM   #22449
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So, how is it that a 5th injector adding more fuel does anything more than adding fuel with the other 4?

Are we to believe that running rich is a substitute for an intercooler? If so, all of the OEMs and every other tuner is doing it wrong and wasting money out of ignorance. How foolish of them.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:47 PM   #22450
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The extra injector does cool the charge a bit, not gonna lie, but he's high if he thinks it comes even close to an intercooler
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:11 AM   #22451
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Quote:
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The extra injector does cool the charge a bit, not gonna lie, but he's high if he thinks it comes even close to an intercooler
The other injectors cool the charge, too. There is no difference due to distance from the intake valves except for the possibility of uneven distribution of fuel and puddling/adhering to walls of intake. I dare say that the higher temperature gradient immediately behind the intake valve would cause the cooling effect to be even more pronounced.

There is a reason OEMs don't put injectors up by the throttle body on our cars. It would be far cheaper for them to just put one or two large injectors just past the throttle body instead of buying and machining the mounting bosses for four of them. But fuel droplets, even very small ones, have much more mass (and therefore inertia) than air and therefore do not turn corners as well. They will tend to wet the walls on the outside of turns or stratify unevenly as they travel, hence the desire of the engineers to place the injectors for the most direct pathway into the combustion chamber as is practical.
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:26 AM   #22452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
The other injectors cool the charge, too. There is no difference due to distance from the intake valves except for the possibility of uneven distribution of fuel and puddling/adhering to walls of intake. I dare say that the higher temperature gradient immediately behind the intake valve would cause the cooling effect to be even more pronounced.

There is a reason OEMs don't put injectors up by the throttle body on our cars. It would be far cheaper for them to just put one or two large injectors just past the throttle body instead of buying and machining the mounting bosses for four of them. But fuel droplets, even very small ones, have much more mass (and therefore inertia) than air and therefore do not turn corners as well. They will tend to wet the walls on the outside of turns or stratify unevenly as they travel, hence the desire of the engineers to place the injectors for the most direct pathway into the combustion chamber as is practical.
Early Ford Tempo had single point fuel injection, known as a "wet system"
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:31 AM   #22453
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My pickup has an extra injector in the intake for "cold weather starting" which has the ironic effect of insuring that you will never be able to start the engine on a cold day.

It sure as hell doesn't make any more power either.
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:45 AM   #22454
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Lots of cars have only one or two injectors located centrally at the throttle body.

This setup is known generally as TBI - Throttle Body Inection.

'Twas highly popular in the 1980s with both US and Japanese automakers, as a transitional step from carburetion to port fuel injection. Fell out of favor for the reasons Six lists.

Interesting sidebar:

The recent ND-fueled discussion of direct injection has gotten me to do a bit of reading on the subject, particularly as it relates to knock suppression in high-compression gasoline engines. One article which I read suggested that the injection of fuel directly into the combustion chamber during the compression cycle had an advantageous effect of decreasing the temperature of the intake charge, as compared to port injection, with knock-decreasing results.


Considered carefully, we have two distinct claims which would appear to be at completely opposite ends of the spectrum:
1. From automakers, that delaying injection until as late as possible (right before the moment of ignition) results in cooler air and reduces knock as compared to port injection.

2. From Tom at FastForwardSuperchargers, that injecting fuel as early as possible (right after the throttle body) results in cooler air and reduces knock as compared to port injection.

There is a possibility that the truth may exist somewhere in here...
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:55 AM   #22455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olderguy View Post
Early Ford Tempo had single point fuel injection, known as a "wet system"
And throttle body injection was common in the early days of fuel injection. The need for greater precision for emissions and economy, coupled with intake pleunums being designed with offset throttle bodies, made those designs obsolete. They did not work as well and were holdovers from days of single carburetors. Note that many higher performance carbureted engines with high bhp/liter and less regard for production costs also used individual runners for each carb venturi (old Ferraris, Jaguars, Aston Martins).
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Old 06-12-2015, 10:09 AM   #22456
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I have no idea how that retardation works, but having eyeballed the AIT sensor on my own FFS setup back in the day, which I actually stuck into the inlet manifold in place of 1 of the injectors, the charge temps would drop

lol

And when I say drop, I mean from 250 down to like 220 on a 85-90* day. I can't even imagine what it would be like on a 100+ day or on track.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:06 PM   #22457
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Quote:
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I have no idea how that retardation works, but having eyeballed the AIT sensor on my own FFS setup back in the day, which I actually stuck into the inlet manifold in place of 1 of the injectors, the charge temps would drop
there's literally a table that says: if your AITs get into the "OH ****" level, reduce timing by X amount.

on Tom's setup there a table that says: if your AITs get into the "OH ****" level, window block.

he posted a video once of his AITs during a boosted pull and i remember them getting well into the 200's {F}, not lowering.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:06 PM   #22458
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This just in: It's impossible to intercool a cold side supercharger.
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Old 06-12-2015, 12:09 PM   #22459
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i love watching the yo-yo master at work:

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Old 06-12-2015, 01:41 PM   #22460
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WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAH
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


....

65mph
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