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Old 03-23-2013, 05:10 PM   #16361
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Imagine a balloon being inflated...
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:27 PM   #16362
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It is all a frame of reference.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:40 PM   #16363
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Random blobs of power expressed as that which we all disregard
Ordered states of nature on a scale which no one thinks about
Don't speak to me of anarchy of peace or calm revolt
Man, we're in a play of slow decay orchestrated by Boltzmann
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:56 PM   #16364
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[1. Tide Pools]

When the ebbing tide retreats
Along the rocky shoreline
It leaves a trail of tidal pools
In a short-lived galaxy
Each microcosmic planet
A complete society

A simple kind mirror
To reflect upon our own
All the busy little creatures
Chasing out their destinies
Living in their pools
They soon forget about the sea...

Wheels within wheels in a spiral array
A pattern so grand and complex
Time after time we lose sight of the way
Our causes can't see their effects

[2. Hyperspace]

A quantum leap forward
In time and in space
The universe learned to expand

The mess and the magic
Triumphant and tragic
A mechanized world out of hand

Computerized clinic
For superior cynics
Who dance to a synthetic band

In their own image
Their world is fashioned
No wonder they don't understand

[3. Permanent Waves]

Science, like nature
Must also be tamed
With a view towards its preservation
Given the same
State of integrity
It will surely serve us well

Art as expression
Not as market campaigns
Will still capture our imaginations
Given the same
State of integrity
It will surely help us along

The most endangered species
The honest man
Will still survive annihilation
Forming a world
State of integrity
Sensitive, open and strong

Wave after wave will flow with the tide
And bury the world as it does
Tide after tide will flow and recede
Leaving life to go on as it was...
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:21 PM   #16365
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Originally Posted by Pen2_the_penguin View Post
I take any of THOSE "facts" about the universe with a grain of salt; anything we say here on earth with our earth-based calculations, science and knowledge may be completely different somewhere else outside of our solar system, so to make claims based off of a super powerful telescope is anything but.
This may well be, in which case it points to lack of comprehension of a different sort.

I don't like not comprehending.


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Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
Imagine a balloon being inflated...
A balloon, which is made from a material forms a distinct boundary which we can perceive, inflating into the observable space which surrounds it and displacing the matter which occupies that space, while all the while the process is observed from a point of view which is outside of the balloon.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:39 PM   #16366
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So just imagine being inside the balloon.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:27 PM   #16367
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I do not have the Zen nature, and cannot accept "don't worry about it" as an answer.

Then I can state it in a more Perezian form:

While the technology and means of experimental observation are being developed by mankind and you are not actively pursuing the answer, go get some tail. As a means of "lasting longer", you can conceptualize the universal boundary(ies) and they're potential permeability vis a vis a condom or female egg. Does the boundary limit the experience completely, or does it just dumb it down a little and protect us from the REAL dangers beyond?
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:54 PM   #16368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Serious question time:

When we are speaking of concepts such as entropy, decay, thermodynamics, etc., we speak of open systems, closed systems, and isolated systems.

Is the universe itself a closed system? Is it isolated?

What happens after all of the hydrogen contained in all the stars in the universe is fully converted? Does the second law of thermodynamics still apply at this scale? What would actually happen if the universe did reach complete thermodynamic equilibrium- could matter continue to exist?

It has been posited that the universe is expanding. If the universe is the sum total of all space, then what space is it expanding into? For the universe to be said to expand, it must be bounded by a finite physical shape. What shape is the universe? How can the universe even have a shape if nothing exists beyond it? How can "nothing" even exist?
I would love to join this conversation, but I decided to partake in excessive drinking today instead.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:21 PM   #16369
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I would love to join this conversation, but I decided to partake in excessive drinking today instead.
A very sensible approach. I believe I'll just take it myself.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:32 PM   #16370
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So just imagine being inside the balloon.
Still isn't working for me. The skin of the balloon is something which I can perceive, and which I can determine to be a boundary. I can then deduce that perhaps there is something on the other side of it/

The Universe does not appear to have a discrete boundary which would function in this way. Some people (who are smarter than I) refer to the universe as finite but unbounded. Meaning that it is not infinitely large, but it had no discrete "edge".

The "not infinitely large" point is the one that bugs me.

If the universe were to be infinitely large, I couldn't accept that as the concept of infinity does not apply to space in a way that I can understand.

If the universe is not infinitely large, that also doesn't work. It's like asking a person "what's the highest number you can think of?" and then adding 1 to it. If it's not infinite, and there's nothing outside of it, then reality itself is all wrong. "Nothing" isn't a real thing.


Quote:
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I would love to join this conversation, but I decided to partake in excessive drinking today instead.
What makes you think that starting the drinking day at 8am isn't what's gotten me into this philosophical state?
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:51 PM   #16371
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Hey, Joe.

What's the highest number you can think of?
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:22 PM   #16372
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Just go read Flatland again. That's what I do in these situations.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:26 PM   #16373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
The Universe does not appear to have a discrete boundary which would function in this way.
It does not appear to have a discrete boundary using the methods of perception we have available to us at this time.

A man operating a radar antenna can perceive the existence of an airplane that cannot be seen with the naked eye. It existed before the radar was energized, but without the technology to perceive it we could only speculate as to it's presence or lack of presence.

Why is our inability to perceive the boundaries or lack of boundaries of our universe so troubling to you when only a few decades ago we knew of less than half of the galaxies we are aware of today? The same few decades ago it was accepted medical practice to insert an icepick through the occipital cavity into a person's brain to slash their brain's frontal lobe to bits to "help them". As you know, we have come very far very quickly and will continue to accelerate (until Islam rises up and takes us back to the 12th century).
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:57 PM   #16374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Still isn't working for me. The skin of the balloon is something which I can perceive, and which I can determine to be a boundary. I can then deduce that perhaps there is something on the other side of it/

The Universe does not appear to have a discrete boundary which would function in this way. Some people (who are smarter than I) refer to the universe as finite but unbounded. Meaning that it is not infinitely large, but it had no discrete "edge".

The "not infinitely large" point is the one that bugs me.

If the universe were to be infinitely large, I couldn't accept that as the concept of infinity does not apply to space in a way that I can understand.

If the universe is not infinitely large, that also doesn't work. It's like asking a person "what's the highest number you can think of?" and then adding 1 to it. If it's not infinite, and there's nothing outside of it, then reality itself is all wrong. "Nothing" isn't a real thing.

Imagine trying to define the edge of a rain storm. Every changing, impossible to measure, but, it is somehow defined.


Recommendation: Take all of life's disappointment, not knowing, and longing; and put it into a tiny ball of tar inside your stomach. Take that little ball of pain, and bury deep inside your heart. Take all of life's emotions, and bury them into that black ball within your soul. Stay emotionless, emotions will only hurt you. Your thoughts will only hurt you. Be alone, even from yourself. Apply anti-depressants as needed.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:19 PM   #16375
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
What makes you think that starting the drinking day at 8am isn't what's gotten me into this philosophical state?
Performing scientific enquiry through philosophical methods will not earn you any repect from scientists. Who cares about about philosophers.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:47 PM   #16376
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I don't like not comprehending.
Look at it this way: It's not a comprehension issue on your part.
We are just not yet ready to fathom the intricacies of the universe we live in with what's at our disposal currently.

It's mostly a trial and error thing, with the occasional dogma thrown in here and there to spice it up.

The earth used to be flat, heavier than air objects would not fly, humans were not fit for speeds exceeding 30 mph, margarine used to good for human consumption, light would not bend...

Humanity makes strides, knowledge accumulates and we all make our own deductions.

There will come a time when people reading about us in a history book will be amazed at our ignorance.


On a tangent to the topic at hand, I have a different sort of beef with "science" today. There were scientists in the past. Dedicated people spending their time with research, purely in the name of science. I mean, most of those people were not chasing commercial success. Their driving force was the awe factor.
We do have scientists today. They are all on some fat corporate payroll, producing requested results to a commercial end. What we end up is not a whole lot more than variations on certain themes, like shiny phones, or engineered food products.
Kraft started a low salt craze. After a successful media barrage, they launched umpteen salt free products and made billions of dollars. They have scientists on payroll to validate their marketing strategies.
And then, a college swim team doctor started prescribing salt pills for the team members. Young, perfectly healthy looking swimmers were cramping in the middle of their laps. Examinations revealed the swimmers had little to no salt in their system, due to the "salt is evil, buy my salt free crap" campaign. They were prescribed salt pills, not unlike goats in a farm. Cramps went away.

Then, fat was bad. They came with substitutes. Olestra was supposed to save the mankind. But, there was one small problem. Olestra consumers were experiencing a.n.a.l leakage. The stuff made people crap their pants. Olestra also has a bunch of scientists on payroll.

We have not been busy looking for the next big thing for a while now. Just variations on certain themes, like faster video cards, bigger TV sets, four valves instead of two, faster connections, etc.

Knowledge, whose absence irritates you will come when we start chasing a new way. Not a new fuel, but "new" for real, like rubber products when there was no rubber before, or flying, when it was just a far fetched dream.

Cliffs: Don't worry, it will all be figured out, and I hate scientists today.

Oh, and props to sixshooter. Very well put, down to the last sentence.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:22 AM   #16377
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This thread currently needs more alcohol, and more Vitamin V.

The universe is expanding. The rate of expansion, is expanding. The mechanism by which this is occurring is not fully understood and is referred to as "dark energy." The observed matter in the universe accounts for only 10% of the measured mass of the universe. The rest of that mass is postulated to exist in "dark matter", which while not possible to observe directly with current technology, has been mapped via measurements of its gravitational influences.

Said map is all convoluted-looking. Kind of like the folds of a brain.

Time to drink more, and watch the Malaysian GP qualifying.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:54 AM   #16378
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Just got done hanging out with everyone's favorite Miami based drug dealer. It was super fun.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:23 AM   #16379
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So how's jake?
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:21 AM   #16380
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So how's jake?
Still not smart enough to know that having Josh call me at 2:30 in the morning is probably not the best way to get unbanned.
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