The hypochondria and pseudoscience thread - Page 12 - Miata Turbo Forum -Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Insert BS here A place to discuss anything you want

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-15-2014, 09:33 PM   #221
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 18,769
Total Cats: 324
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
Just needs a bible for my part of the country.
the fish logo symbol is enough lip service for the good "Christian" of the south.
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2014, 09:57 PM   #222
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 24,681
Total Cats: 1,576
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
the fish logo symbol is enough lip service for the good "Christian" of the south.
I think that's supposed to be one of those magnetic "I claim to support this cause, even though I don't actually do anything about it other than purchasing magnetic ribbons" ribbon. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awareness_ribbons
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2014, 10:09 PM   #223
Elite Member
iTrader: (11)
 
chicksdigmiatas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Texas, 'Murica
Posts: 2,247
Total Cats: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
Honestly, I'm past caring what peoples' "impressions" are at this point.

The information and research is available. If you're irritated by the tone of someone pointing you to the research, that's fine.
I'm not irritated by it. Those folks are passionate for good reason. I read the research (alot of which I found on my own, and the studies that the SAD folks sent me too, which I honestly kind of found to be crap) and I tried it, and it worked. I used to have a hard time controlling my body fat, and I always had to do mindless cardio to burn off those awful tasting whole grains I was choking down in the name of health. I never really ate them before because I never liked them and I was one of those guys that "ate what they wanted and never gained weight." Then I started eating them because they were "healthy." My weight would fluctuate between 220 and 240, now I just stay rock solid at 220 and I don't have to be miserable running twenty some miles a week. I am back to eating the large amount of animal protein sources and vegetables which I loved before and felt better eating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Different people define "paleo" differently. If you were to take a strict definition, i.e. dairy wasn't consumed by paleolithic humans... well, lots of people consider that diet to be a *starting* point. Lots of human populations for example do have a genetic mutation to digest lactose into adulthood. Tubers (potatoes) and white rice are well tolerated by most people, provided you don't eat enough to produce a large blood sugar spike, etc. From that said starting point, you have to tailor it to you as an individual. I for example, tolerate dairy well, but starches not. I seem to do well with nightshade veggies (a lot of people don't), cruciferous veggies, and nuts. Large amounts of wheat (a big paleo no-no), and hydrolyzed veg protein, gives me headaches. And so on.
You are right, everyone does it different. I don't know that I have a strict definition for it, but it includes eliminating dairy, and I don't see how that matters a whole lot, unless you drink more than a cup of milk a day. I am pretty sure you are knowledgeable on how lactose affects your blood sugar though.

Grains make me poop and fat, and I never liked "preservativey" stuff. It really did open my eyes on that plasticy fake butter, however. I never did use the stuff, but they (officers with masters and doctorates) were telling me to tell people to use it so I did. I will never understand the whole veg protein thing. "They" always advocate for it and vegans, especially claim to do it for health reasons, but they are just choking down tons of sugar and processed stuff. How is that healthy again?

As for the dairy, I see no problem with it on the "as tolerated" basis. I rarely drink milk, and usually do yogurt and cheese. (I got an awesome raw cheese care package yesterday and it is fabulous. I wonder how many state lines it crossed before getting to KSA? ) I don't like milk and I feel that soy milk is just another "food product" and also nasty. People need to realize that more goes into bone health other than calcium, like vitamin D, silicone, boron, iron, and actually using them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
It is amazing I went from knocking that guy about a year ago to now enjoying his articles. I don't always agree with him, but overall, good, well thought out, interesting, and entertaining.


Edit, this quote was a gem.

Quote:
Translation: By embracing eggs, beef, wild salmon, chicken, lamb, pork, kale, chard, romaine lettuce, spinach, blackberries, blueberries, raspberries, apples, broccoli, sweet potatoes, beets, carrots, oranges, sardines, organ meats, shellfish, fennel, onions, garlic, asparagus, seaweed, butternut squash, yellow squash, zucchini, tomatoes, strawberries, cantaloupe, almonds, macadamia nuts, sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, pecans, walnuts, and tuna, you’re at risk of missing out on a lot of nutrients. All those foods might taste nice and look pretty on a plate, but they are incredibly nutrient-sparse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
^ How you see us.

How we see you:



Do you know how many people are surprised that I am American when I meet them now that I have gotten out of my box? I guess they expect us all to look like that. Although, we deserve it. I remember when I first started at mazda back in the day washing cars, I cleaned out this one fat bitches car that had left it there two weeks for something. All of the half eaten McDonalds cheeseburgers that hadn't aged laying in there... disgusting.

Last edited by chicksdigmiatas; 01-15-2014 at 10:19 PM.
chicksdigmiatas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 01:15 PM   #224
Crumple Zone Tester
iTrader: (6)
 
mgeoffriau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Jackson, MS
Posts: 7,490
Total Cats: 373
Default

Interesting stuff.

Understanding Genetic Differences In Carb Metabolism

Quote:
There is nothing more controversial in the nutrition world then carbohydrates. There are some people/groups that condemn carbohydrates as a terrorist infiltrating our society. At the other end of the spectrum we have people/groups that condemn fat in the same manner and preach a higher carbohydrate diet for the masses. There is research that supports both arguments so who are we supposed to believe? The answer lies in your genome.

Our gene pool began to differentiate between one another when we began to settle in various locations around the globe. Some hunter-gatherer groups settled in cold climates, some in warm climates, and everything in between. Each location offered its own challenges and evolutionary pressures, one of them being diet.

For example, colder climates may have relied more heavily on animal meats for food and warmer, wetter climates may have relied more heavily on plant food (Diet and the evolution of human amylase gene copy number variation). This led to diversity in one specific gene responsible for the breakdown of carbohydrates, alpha-amylase (AMY1). AMY1 is a salivary enzyme that begins the breakdown of starch in the mouth and makes it taste sweet.

AMY1 variation exists between different members of the human species. This may be a major reason why there is so much variation from person to person when it comes to carbohydrate intake. Some people thrive on a higher carbohydrate diet and others thrive when carbohydrates are kept in check. This is also a reason why there will never be just one perfect human diet.

The USDA recommends that the entire population consumes 45% to 65% of their daily calories in the form of starch. Is this a correct recommendation to the part of the population that contains fewer copies of the AMY1 gene? It is not only unfair, but may be setting them up for a future filled with weight issues and all the diseases that accompany increased weight.

Abigail Manell and Paul Breslin have done some amazing research at the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia. One study in particular looked at starch digestion between differing AMY1 groups. The experimental group was healthy, non-obese individuals and they were divided into a high amylase group and a low amylase group. They came into the lab twice, once to ingest starch (experiment) and glucose (control). The low amylase group had higher blood glucose levels then the high amylase group during starch consumption. This increase in blood glucose levels lasted for the two hours that the participants remained at the lab! Interestingly, when the low amylase group consumed the glucose blood sugar levels remained relatively consistent with the high amylase group and the blood sugar did not stay elevated as long as when they ingested the starch (High Endogenous Salivary Amylase Activity Is Associated with Improved Glycemic Homeostasis following Starch Ingestion in Adults).

Recommending a high starch diet to people with low amylase gene copies is setting them up for insulin resistance and diabetes. Another thing to think about is the diversity within each group. Humans can contain anywhere between 2 and 15 copies of the AMY1 gene (PLOS ONE: Individual Differences in AMY1 Gene Copy Number, Salivary). This means there is a wide difference from person to person on blood glucose levels following the exact same intake of starch.

The research by Manell and Braslin was published in the Journal of Nutrition in 2012. This is an extremely new phenomenon when looking at the individuality of carbohydrate digestion. All we know about this topic is that some people respond to the same meal of starch differently. We do not know optimal starch intake for each variation yet. 45% to 65% of calories coming from starch may still be too much for even the people that contain 15 copies of AMY1 gene, we do not know the tolerable upper intake level.

Underlying inflammation is also going to be a variable. Carbohydrate metabolism gets dysfunctional when inflammation is present. Someone with 15 copies of the AMY1 gene that exercises, sleeps well, has friends, and manages stress may respond more favorable to the same starch meal that someone with 15 copies that is sedentary. Also, food quality is still going to play a role. Just because someone has a higher number of AMY1 copies does not mean eating a high grain diet will be beneficial, remember the inflammation piece.

Who knows where the future of this information will take us. It does bring to light a few things. Everyone is truly their own unique snowflake. It also brings to light that there is a lot we do not know about the human body. We need to remain humble and actually listen to our patients/clients. They know more about their body then science does.
mgeoffriau is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 02:55 PM   #225
Boost Czar

iTrader: (60)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 70,179
Total Cats: 1,402
Default

cant figure out why im fat:

Attached Thumbnails
The hypochondria and pseudoscience thread-pfsqtkk.jpg  
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 03:08 PM   #226
Elite Member
iTrader: (19)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 5,190
Total Cats: 326
Default

Holy crap, what's with all the donuts? Are you a cop?
rleete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 03:12 PM   #227
Boost Czar

iTrader: (60)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 70,179
Total Cats: 1,402
Default

lunch. what's with the ice cream in the fridge?!
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 03:15 PM   #228
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 24,681
Total Cats: 1,576
Default

Attached Thumbnails
The hypochondria and pseudoscience thread-lunch.jpg  
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 03:28 PM   #229
Crumple Zone Tester
iTrader: (6)
 
mgeoffriau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Jackson, MS
Posts: 7,490
Total Cats: 373
Default

Are the soy sauce packets for the donuts or the leftover pizza?
mgeoffriau is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 04:10 PM   #230
Boost Czar

iTrader: (60)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 70,179
Total Cats: 1,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
hey this looks like my leftovers last night. but i made it myself.

fresh chicken breast, carrots, broccoli and asparagus covered in soy sauce, honey, ginger, and garlic along with poorly cooked brown rice.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 04:20 PM   #231
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 24,681
Total Cats: 1,576
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
hey this looks like my leftovers last night. but i made it myself.
Take-out from the little Chinese place down the street. Steamed chicken with sliced ginger and delightful* sauce, string-beans, and rice.

I'm down to 211 lbs, shooting for a return to 200 before I try the lo-carb thing again.

Feels good to be riding again, too. I may never be at the level of doing the sort of 50-100 mile enduros that Hustler and Emilio are talking about over in the carbonlust thread, but even just 5-6 miles a day of ordinary stop-and-go commuting makes a big difference in how I feel.


* = yes, this is the only description given of the sauce. It is, in fact, delightful.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 04:55 PM   #232
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,334
Total Cats: 67
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
Interesting stuff.

Understanding Genetic Differences In Carb Metabolism
That's good stuff. Chris Kresser is another big proponent of individuals tailoring the paleo diet, and the "N=1 experiment". (Which is what Joe is now doing). Chris has a new book out:

Your Personal Paleo Code: The 3-Step Plan to Lose Weight, Reverse Disease, and Stay Fit and Healthy for Life: Chris Kresser: 9780316322898: Amazon.com: Books Your Personal Paleo Code: The 3-Step Plan to Lose Weight, Reverse Disease, and Stay Fit and Healthy for Life: Chris Kresser: 9780316322898: Amazon.com: Books


Joe, I would consider changing your experiment to substituting grains with more veggies and/or tubers (e.g. sweet potato, cassava, potato), and removing industrial seed oils. Or at least properly prepare your own grains (and legumes and seeds) a la the Weston Price foundation (soak em overnight, throw water, then cook, to get rid of the phytates, and lectin anti-nutrients):

Be Kind to Your Grains...And Your Grains Will Be Kind To You - Weston A Price Foundation
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 09:06 PM   #233
Crumple Zone Tester
iTrader: (6)
 
mgeoffriau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Jackson, MS
Posts: 7,490
Total Cats: 373
Default

More good stuff about how to fine tune your N=1 experiment.

The Dangers of Metabolic Adaptation

Quote:
The concept of metabolic adaption is scary to me. Not because it’s right or wrong, but because it’s often prescribed to dieters without any examination.

People are told that if they have been dieting for a long period of time and are now having problems losing weight, then their hormone levels have been compromised by all the dieting and therefore they must ‘eat up’ for a length of time to restore their hormone levels.

And this *MAY* be true, but it also may not be true.

The problem with telling a person that their hormones levels are up or down is that you typically do not have any kind of baseline measurements.

It’s rare to hear that a person has a record of their blood profiles that were recorded when they were at their healthiest or at their ideal (ie. not overweight and not dieting).

Even if blood samples were taken right before a diet started, these numbers would be confounded by the fact the person most likely has extra fat to lose (so the levels may not be a true ideal, but instead depressed or elevated by the extra fat).

Most of the time, ‘metabolic adaptation’ is being diagnosed, and changes in hormone levels are being blamed, without a baseline measurement to compare to. And without a baseline, you’re just guessing.

Yes, we do have population averages – but typically these are wide ranges, sometimes very wide. And while coming in high or low of a population average is reason for further check up, it does not automatically indicate that this is the cause of your weight loss problems.

This is my problem with prescribing metabolic adaptation – you’re guessing when you should be measuring.

To be clear, there is NOTHING wrong with ‘eating up’. Generally I like people on Eat Stop Eat to be on no more than a 15% calorie deficit on the days they are not fasting, and I’d even like them closer to ‘maintenance’ the leaner they get. I don’t mind large caloric deficits for short periods of time (in people who can afford to be in a large deficit), but in general I like people to eat and then occasionally take a break from eating. People often hear the last part of that statement, but seem to want to ignore the first part icon wink The Dangers of Metabolic Adaptation

S0 my problem with ‘eating up’ isn’t the application or idea (which I like), but the reasoning (which concerns me).

This happens to a lot of good ideas in health and nutrition – We figure out that something helps, then we guess at why it helps, then when those guesses are questioned or proven wrong we throw the whole thing out, ignoring the fact that even if the ‘why’ was wrong, whatever you were doing WAS somehow helping.

The danger in guessing is that self-diagnosing could actually cause you to become a crazy fanatic worrier (because you’re worrying without facts), or worse, it could cause to you miss the diagnoses of a larger, potentially more dangerous problem.

If you think something is wrong, get it checked, compare it to some kind of baseline then move forward.

When it comes to dieting either go by feel (You feel tired and lethargic so you’re going to up calories a bit), go by measurements (Your Testosterone or Thryoid or Cortisol measurements are drastically lower then they were when you had them measured before you started this new diet, it’s time to change something), but don’t go by guessing (I’m feeling tired, therefore my adrenals are fatigued).

- See more at: The Dangers of Metabolic Adaptation | Brad Pilon's 'Eat Blog Eat'
mgeoffriau is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2014, 04:34 PM   #234
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,334
Total Cats: 67
Default

Yet more paleo diet misrepresentation, by Michael Pollan this time:
Michael Pollan Explains What's Wrong With the Paleo Diet | Mother Jones

Good reply from "Livin' La Vida Low Carb" Jimmy Moore:
Quote:
~ With all due respect, Michael, nearly all of your "suggestions" are the very CORE of what Paleo living is all about--consuming pastured animals, adding in fermented foods, learn to get back in the kitchen and cook again, etc. While most Paleo peeps don't agree with him that bread is necessarily a healthy part of the human diet, even his logic with that runs exactly opposite his position on consuming meat. What's most disappointing is the fact that Pollan probably has a lot more in common with the supporters of Paleo than not. So why this antagonistic article? Makes no sense at all.
Pollan also says bread is good as long as you don't have Celiac's.
Well the medical research establishment now has an official term which apparently Pollan is unaware of: "Non Celiac Gluten Sensitivity".
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2014, 04:46 PM   #235
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 18,769
Total Cats: 324
Default

Michael Pollan is good friends with my wife's boss who is very into the Paleo diet and works on food issues.

I wonder if they have had this conversation before...
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2014, 06:06 PM   #236
Boost Czar

iTrader: (60)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 70,179
Total Cats: 1,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
* = yes, this is the only description given of the sauce. It is, in fact, delightful.
sugar, corn starch, soy sauce, vinegar, garlic, and ginger tends to be delightful, yes.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 06:07 PM   #237
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 217
Total Cats: -276
Default

"S.S.G.G"

Salt/Shoyu, Sugar, Ginger, Garlic. When in doubt, SSGG. This will make anything taste good.

Also, I would ask the local Chinese restaurant if they use MSG. If so, avoid it.
Hinano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 01:51 PM   #238
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 24,681
Total Cats: 1,576
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Joe, I would consider changing your experiment to substituting grains with more veggies and/or tubers (e.g. sweet potato, cassava, potato),
I'm a bit confused here. Someone was warning earlier that (to paraphrase), "Starch is the real problem- if you're eating potatoes you might as well be consuming candy," and I'd thought it was you.

Regardless, I'm not a big potato person. When (if?) I resume the experiment, it'll involve a more usual quantity of veg (broccoli, brussels sprouts, green beans) but I don't intend to suddenly start wolfing down lots of potatoes. Never have in the past, don't want to start now.

Point of curiosity, when you say "...substituting grains with more veggies and/or tubers" I interpret this as meaning that you thought I was consuming grains in the prior test regime. Aside from one Mission-brand low-carb tortilla per day as a wrap at lunch (6g net carb, 220 calories mostly from fat and protein), and an occasional tin of lahana sarma when I just couldn't take any more sliced fresh mozerella with olive oil and herbs as a side dish, that was the entire extent of my grain intake. I'm consuming much more in the way of grains at present, since I'm having a fair-sized helping of short-grain brown rice pretty much daily, and I am losing body fat and suffering no perceivable ill-effects. If anything, I feel "normal" again. (Details of present dietary regime near bottom of this post.)




Quote:
and removing industrial seed oils.
To repeat from before, the only oil I have in the house, which I use for all purposes, is olive oil. When I am dining out (which, under the current regime I am doing almost every day), I have little control over oil selection. But, to reiterate, I am doing better now than when I was under an "all natural, all home-cooked, using only olive-oil and lots of it" regime.



So, after three weeks on the Precious Diet (so named because the nearest Chinese takeout place to my apartment is called Precious), I'm down from 217 to 204.8 (my scale reads in weird increments.) I know it sounds weird, and I didn't even set into this intentionally, but I've wound up on the Chinese takeout version of the Twinkie diet.

Haven't made any changes other than to replace my large, high-fat / protein dinners (meat & cheese) with takeout from Precious. The portions are so huge that a single order (entree plus steamed brown rice), easily makes 2-3 full dinners, so it's even cost-effective

Roast duck, in brown gravy, with shiitake mushrooms, snow peas and green pepper:




So far, feeling great. Jeans have loosened a tad, and I have plenty of energy throughout the day.
Attached Thumbnails
The hypochondria and pseudoscience thread-f285_53b_u77ts.jpg  
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 01:51 PM   #239
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 24,681
Total Cats: 1,576
Default

Also, Jason, you'd expressed an interest in blood glucose, and I have some data there as well. I did a couple of proper fasting measurements (first thing in the morning), and they were 82 and 85. So that's dead-nuts in the middle of the 70-100 "normal" range that I see cited by most reputable sources. I did the second one (that returned an initial 85) at 9:30 am on a Saturday, and proceeded to spent the next three hours pounding down rum and diet cola*, just for kicks. So much, in fact, that by noon I was so hammed I could barely stand up, and this is highly unusual for me. At the end of this binge, blood glucose had gone from 85 to 83. This was just a point of curiosity, which I did to see if these two things, by themselves, caused any sort of blood-glucose spikes. They don't.

Also, I've been doing before-and-after dinner measurements as well. Before dinner (~6 hours after lunch), a typical reading is around 90. One hour after a reasonably-sized plate of the aforementioned cuisine (from the last post), range will be maybe 120-130. This is higher than the one-hour-after measurement of a completely carb-free, sugar-free meal, but not massively so. I conclude that my body has no quarrels whatsoever, in this regard, with a big plate of mango chicken and brown rice.


* = I selected two different colas for this test; Diet Pepsi and Diet Rite, as they seem to contain highly different sweetener / additive packages.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2014, 01:51 PM   #240
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 24,681
Total Cats: 1,576
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinano View Post
Salt/Shoyu, Sugar, Ginger, Garlic. When in doubt, SSGG. This will make anything taste good.
This is a fair analysis. I'd add a few other ingredients into the mix as well (mango, various mushrooms, duck fat, etc) but all in all, this seems to be workable advice.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinano View Post
Also, I would ask the local Chinese restaurant if they use MSG. If so, avoid it.
Why?
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OTS Bilstein to motorsports ASN conversion stoves Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 5 04-21-2016 04:00 PM
My solution for Oiltemp and Oilpressure input into Megasuirt (MS3) Zaphod MEGAsquirt 41 01-24-2016 01:25 PM
Going back to stock. Need some 1.6 parts. Trent WTB 2 10-01-2015 01:15 PM
Leaky Wilwoods mx592 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 1 10-01-2015 01:45 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:29 PM.