I'd like to know what FM thinks they do better than BEGi
09-26-2007, 04:34 PM
#24
Former Vendor
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bell Tuning & Performance
Posts: 1,337
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No joke. People writing about you and you don't even know it.
Here are my thoughts..
I have to disagree. Corky has raced about as long as Bill has. He does not race now though. I think it would speak more for us if someone else went out there and raced with our parts and did a great job, than an employee doing it. He knows it will hold up. That said, Corky really wants me to start racing and auto crossing. I just keep dragging my feet.
I hope we do not come across as aloof. We are probably the friendliest bunch you have come across. I know there are many misconceptions that have been instigated and perpetuated, by other people, about us. Slowly, we are changing people's minds. But they way I look at is now - now that FM and BEGi "divorced" - they cannot blame us for the problems anymore. We are no longer the convenient scapegoat. We did do some things wrong, but no where near the amount FM has lead everyone to believe over the years.
Of coarse, FM has better marketing. They have been marketing parts directly since before 1997. While we sat behind the scenes. We had no need to market stuff, that was FM's job and part of our agreement. To stay behind the scenes. Please don't slam us for honoring that agreement.
While we were behind the scenes, we had no reason to be a one stop shop. We are slowing incorporating everything from clutches, exhaust, etc... Mainly turbo related stuff first. The rest of the stuff will come too. Plus alot of new stuff that they are not capable of producing, tomorrow if needed.
The BEGi fuel system is older technology. But it is proven and time tested. That said, and the fact that it does work well (without having to cut wires), speaks for itself. But don't think that means we are not currently exploring other options. Corky will take his time to decide on something instead of going with the first POS to come along.
Mega Squirt looks to be an awesome thing. Kudos to you if you have the time, energy, and willingness to start over from scratch in making your car run. Me? No way. Besides, everyone has a different set of desires/needs for a turbo set up or engine management. The Xede fits perfect for some and for me, and I don't have to be a genius to use it. Yeah, it doesn't go with CARB, but it keeps you OBD II compliant. While California is one state, OBDII exists in about 30 of the other states.
Stephanie
Here are my thoughts..
Corky has a degree in mechanical engineering and worked as an engineer in the aerospace industry for quite some time before striking out on his own. So far as I know, BEGi does not directly participate in motorsports, choosing instead to function as a think-tank and design boutique. It's likely that this background, along with the fact that he tends to speak (and write) in engineerese, causes Bell and his firm to be perceived by some as aloof.
I hope we do not come across as aloof. We are probably the friendliest bunch you have come across. I know there are many misconceptions that have been instigated and perpetuated, by other people, about us. Slowly, we are changing people's minds. But they way I look at is now - now that FM and BEGi "divorced" - they cannot blame us for the problems anymore. We are no longer the convenient scapegoat. We did do some things wrong, but no where near the amount FM has lead everyone to believe over the years.
Of coarse, FM has better marketing. They have been marketing parts directly since before 1997. While we sat behind the scenes. We had no need to market stuff, that was FM's job and part of our agreement. To stay behind the scenes. Please don't slam us for honoring that agreement.
While we were behind the scenes, we had no reason to be a one stop shop. We are slowing incorporating everything from clutches, exhaust, etc... Mainly turbo related stuff first. The rest of the stuff will come too. Plus alot of new stuff that they are not capable of producing, tomorrow if needed.
The BEGi fuel system is older technology. But it is proven and time tested. That said, and the fact that it does work well (without having to cut wires), speaks for itself. But don't think that means we are not currently exploring other options. Corky will take his time to decide on something instead of going with the first POS to come along.
Mega Squirt looks to be an awesome thing. Kudos to you if you have the time, energy, and willingness to start over from scratch in making your car run. Me? No way. Besides, everyone has a different set of desires/needs for a turbo set up or engine management. The Xede fits perfect for some and for me, and I don't have to be a genius to use it. Yeah, it doesn't go with CARB, but it keeps you OBD II compliant. While California is one state, OBDII exists in about 30 of the other states.
Stephanie
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09-26-2007, 04:51 PM
#26
Former Vendor
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bell Tuning & Performance
Posts: 1,337
Total Cats: -99
LOL! Wish I could think that fast.
We do sponsor some cars. The last few years Corky has worked alot with the formula 1 college teams, and UT and A&M race projects. Send me info.
Stephanie
We do sponsor some cars. The last few years Corky has worked alot with the formula 1 college teams, and UT and A&M race projects. Send me info.
Stephanie
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09-26-2007, 05:09 PM
#28
Steph,
You're here enough to know that most of us love you!:gay:
There's a whole lot more FM bashers around here than folks hating on BEGI. You'll notice that most of the people chirping in on the M.net thread are regulars here and they were all recommending you.
By the way. Got the Mani. Thanks!
You're here enough to know that most of us love you!:gay:
There's a whole lot more FM bashers around here than folks hating on BEGI. You'll notice that most of the people chirping in on the M.net thread are regulars here and they were all recommending you.
By the way. Got the Mani. Thanks!
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09-26-2007, 05:12 PM
#29
I could have used BEGI while I was in school down in Texas (Rice)...our SAE put a supercharger (along with a lot else) on an old Alfa Romeo and raced in OneLap of America. Actually, the team is still working on the car and taking it each year. It'd be nice to have (semi)local help from BEGi!
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09-26-2007, 06:08 PM
#34
Mega Squirt looks to be an awesome thing. Kudos to you if you have the time, energy, and willingness to start over from scratch in making your car run. Me? No way. Besides, everyone has a different set of desires/needs for a turbo set up or engine management. The Xede fits perfect for some and for me, and I don't have to be a genius to use it. Yeah, it doesn't go with CARB, but it keeps you OBD II compliant. While California is one state, OBDII exists in about 30 of the other states.
Stephanie
Stephanie
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09-26-2007, 06:10 PM
#35
Tour de Franzia
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I didn't know bell had a dyno. Stephanie, please email me or pm me if you cut a deal for your customers. I bought an S3 kit for you, and I'll need to tune it. I'm also running MS. Anything new on the rear t-stat housing?
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09-26-2007, 07:08 PM
#36
Boost Pope
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Stephanie and Phil- don't misunderstand. I realize upon re-reading that a lot of that sounded overly harsh, which was not my intention. I'm not bashing Bill, or Corky, or FM or BEGi for that matter. In fact, I have great respect for both companies and the individuals that make them up. If you guys down in Texas ever need an electronics whiz on staff, let me know.
Corky is no doubt one of the more knowledgeable and experianced folks around when it comes to the subject of building and tuning for forced induction. In a way, he reminds me of Gene Berg, who for many, many years was regarded as the Godfather and patron saint of the high-performance aircooled Volkswagen universe. While I have never purchased anything directly from BEGi, I do own both of Corky's books, and consider them to be among the definitive works on the subject of the design and tuning of forced induction for the modern EFI engine. As an engineer I find his style of analytical writing coherent and fulfilling, and "Maximum Boost" in particular played a strong role in the final design of my system.
Sadly, I do in contrast feel that Keith's books (both Performance Projects and the Seven book) while colorful and inviting for the novice, lacked substance. Keith, if you're reading this, please don't take it personally- most of the Motorbooks Workshop publications strike me this way. I just expected a lot more hard tech when I bought Cheap Sports Car- particularly in the area of suspension design. I do understand that these are not part of the official FM canon, however a very strong association is inferred by the reader.
I am aware of Corky's past in motorsports, but that wasn't really my point. So far as I am aware from my exposure to their literature, BEGi is not presently engaged in any active form of motor racing involving products which they currently sell, and as a company BEGi has not made an effort to educate me otherwise. This isn't a criticism, just a point of differentiation.
And I think I spoke too harshly concerning the Bell website. There is indeed good information to be found, and I think Stephanie is absolutely correct in her assertion as to why I considered FM to excel in this regard- they have more experiance in end-user marketing
Likewise, I think that FM also does a positive service for the Miata enthusiast community. I have purchased a number of smaller items from them, and with the exception of their old-style BOV been quite pleased both with the product quality and the level of service. While it's true that they are for the most part a reseller rather than a manufacturer, they have in my mind distinguished themselves from the more pedestrian catalog-order vendors in the marketspace by their enthusiasm and active involvement in the community, as well as by their positive attitude. And I don't think that FM engages in overt Bell-bashing. For the most part Keith seems content lobbing well-deserved arrows at FFS and the former Jackson Racing. (The April 1 news release last year was a riot.)
Honestly, I find no fault whatsoever in the basic design of Bell's turbo systems. The design of the manifold and downpipe appear to be first-rate, and while it would be nice if I could look at the overall instructions for a complete kit, I'd say that in general the layout of everything seems very well thought-out. And even though I'm not much of a supercharger fan in general, I must admit that the MOAB is incredibly sexy.
I do however stand by my criticism of both companies' current approach to engine management in the lower-tier FI systems. It is true that the Bell FMU has a long and proven track record as an excellent performer, and is adequate for most applications. The Pierburg fuel pump however has always struck me as somewhat of a kludge, and an expensive one at that. The Walbro 190HP also has a proven track record, retails for roughly 1/3 the price, and has the benefit of not requiring external plumbing and wiring. I also see no mention of an exhaust O2 “sensor clamp” in the Bell package. While I admit that I have little hard data to absolutely verify the necessity of this component, my own limited experience with FI tuning on the Miata suggests that it is a useful tuning aid, even with more exotic piggyback systems such as the EMU.
Likewise, the FM voodoo is entirely too expensive for what it does. Relying entirely upon the duty-cycle headroom presumed to have been left on the table by Mazda during their injector-size calculations without the ability to trim fuel for up-sized injectors limits the product entirely too severely. And yet it costs just as much as the eManage Blue even after you factor in all the external gadgets.
What bugs me most about these two solutions however is that they provide no mechanism whatsoever for dynamic timing control. BEGi, to their credit, offers up the Bipes ACU as an affordable add-on, and FM still has the crusty old MSD / Sebring box in their catalog, but at the level of these two companies, something along these lines really ought to be standard. I can accept Greddy not including proper ignition control with their kit- it only costs $1200 including the turbo. But at the $3,000 level and above, some form of ignition control really ought to be part of the package.
Again, I hope that nobody interprets any of this as bashing, because that's not my intent at all. This actually started out as a general defense of both Bell and FM. Any criticism that I offer should be taken in the same spirit as that of Winston Churchill who wryly observed that “democracy is the worst form of government, with the exception of all the others that have been tried.”
Corky is no doubt one of the more knowledgeable and experianced folks around when it comes to the subject of building and tuning for forced induction. In a way, he reminds me of Gene Berg, who for many, many years was regarded as the Godfather and patron saint of the high-performance aircooled Volkswagen universe. While I have never purchased anything directly from BEGi, I do own both of Corky's books, and consider them to be among the definitive works on the subject of the design and tuning of forced induction for the modern EFI engine. As an engineer I find his style of analytical writing coherent and fulfilling, and "Maximum Boost" in particular played a strong role in the final design of my system.
Sadly, I do in contrast feel that Keith's books (both Performance Projects and the Seven book) while colorful and inviting for the novice, lacked substance. Keith, if you're reading this, please don't take it personally- most of the Motorbooks Workshop publications strike me this way. I just expected a lot more hard tech when I bought Cheap Sports Car- particularly in the area of suspension design. I do understand that these are not part of the official FM canon, however a very strong association is inferred by the reader.
I am aware of Corky's past in motorsports, but that wasn't really my point. So far as I am aware from my exposure to their literature, BEGi is not presently engaged in any active form of motor racing involving products which they currently sell, and as a company BEGi has not made an effort to educate me otherwise. This isn't a criticism, just a point of differentiation.
And I think I spoke too harshly concerning the Bell website. There is indeed good information to be found, and I think Stephanie is absolutely correct in her assertion as to why I considered FM to excel in this regard- they have more experiance in end-user marketing
Likewise, I think that FM also does a positive service for the Miata enthusiast community. I have purchased a number of smaller items from them, and with the exception of their old-style BOV been quite pleased both with the product quality and the level of service. While it's true that they are for the most part a reseller rather than a manufacturer, they have in my mind distinguished themselves from the more pedestrian catalog-order vendors in the marketspace by their enthusiasm and active involvement in the community, as well as by their positive attitude. And I don't think that FM engages in overt Bell-bashing. For the most part Keith seems content lobbing well-deserved arrows at FFS and the former Jackson Racing. (The April 1 news release last year was a riot.)
Honestly, I find no fault whatsoever in the basic design of Bell's turbo systems. The design of the manifold and downpipe appear to be first-rate, and while it would be nice if I could look at the overall instructions for a complete kit, I'd say that in general the layout of everything seems very well thought-out. And even though I'm not much of a supercharger fan in general, I must admit that the MOAB is incredibly sexy.
I do however stand by my criticism of both companies' current approach to engine management in the lower-tier FI systems. It is true that the Bell FMU has a long and proven track record as an excellent performer, and is adequate for most applications. The Pierburg fuel pump however has always struck me as somewhat of a kludge, and an expensive one at that. The Walbro 190HP also has a proven track record, retails for roughly 1/3 the price, and has the benefit of not requiring external plumbing and wiring. I also see no mention of an exhaust O2 “sensor clamp” in the Bell package. While I admit that I have little hard data to absolutely verify the necessity of this component, my own limited experience with FI tuning on the Miata suggests that it is a useful tuning aid, even with more exotic piggyback systems such as the EMU.
Likewise, the FM voodoo is entirely too expensive for what it does. Relying entirely upon the duty-cycle headroom presumed to have been left on the table by Mazda during their injector-size calculations without the ability to trim fuel for up-sized injectors limits the product entirely too severely. And yet it costs just as much as the eManage Blue even after you factor in all the external gadgets.
What bugs me most about these two solutions however is that they provide no mechanism whatsoever for dynamic timing control. BEGi, to their credit, offers up the Bipes ACU as an affordable add-on, and FM still has the crusty old MSD / Sebring box in their catalog, but at the level of these two companies, something along these lines really ought to be standard. I can accept Greddy not including proper ignition control with their kit- it only costs $1200 including the turbo. But at the $3,000 level and above, some form of ignition control really ought to be part of the package.
Again, I hope that nobody interprets any of this as bashing, because that's not my intent at all. This actually started out as a general defense of both Bell and FM. Any criticism that I offer should be taken in the same spirit as that of Winston Churchill who wryly observed that “democracy is the worst form of government, with the exception of all the others that have been tried.”
Last edited by Joe Perez; 09-26-2007 at 07:40 PM.
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09-26-2007, 08:51 PM
#38
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NC
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I'm looking forward to MS for NB with a quick pnp harness (for parallel install to keep OBDII)... I know it can be done w/workarounds but I (having baby in life now) don't have loads of time to play with the car sigh.. Quick working solutions are desireable.. If someone here writes up the full guide on installing MS on NB in parallel to keep OBDII - then I'll have a go at it. But till then the Xede is working well.. Don't get me wrong I'm all for the open sourced solution and love the idea of MS and that it seems to be working really well for a lot of you guys I just don't have time to dig thru posts to find every aspect of change required and then maybe have something I missed and a week of after work troubleshooting..
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09-26-2007, 09:46 PM
#39
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Joe,
What the hell are you doing on this forum? Your two posts are the most reasonable, fair, complete comparisons of FM and BEGI I have seen anywhere yet. No fanboy soundbites, no hating, just plain unbiased perceptions. Well said and good job!
What the hell are you doing on this forum? Your two posts are the most reasonable, fair, complete comparisons of FM and BEGI I have seen anywhere yet. No fanboy soundbites, no hating, just plain unbiased perceptions. Well said and good job!
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09-26-2007, 10:00 PM
#40
Boost Pope
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Hey now, I worked on the Formula SAE team back at UF. In our shop, it was the folks on the HEVy project (Hybrid Electric) who couldn't think without money. Or more precisely, without being sponsored by Chrysler. 
In fairness tho, they were building hybrid cars back in '95, long before it was cool.
In fairness tho, they were building hybrid cars back in '95, long before it was cool.
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