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Old 12-29-2015, 12:28 AM   #3441
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Beautiful!!

Let me know if you're interested in selling the Ultegra 11sp group. I'm planning on building a bike over the winter with 11sp 105 but if you're selling ultegra, maybe I'm buying ultegra?

I just finished 2 hours on Zwift on my second try, and i was feeling like poopoo and exhausted before hand. I love my bike, it's like a runner's high but more betterer. Now for a big glass of chocolate milk and a loooong shower.

EDIT: Besides 949 kit, there should also be orange 949 hubs in this world.
FD and RD have not found a home yet. Bar end shifters and TT brake levers going on Johns (engineer here) TT build. Shoot me an email.

I am actually working on 949 Racing kit these last few weeks. Look up Cycling Gear | Crafted in California ? Eliel Cycling
More info as we get further in.
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Old 12-29-2015, 01:47 AM   #3442
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Ewww.

55/11, no ragrets.

I might do a 949 kit if it's prices for people people who cannot afford DA.
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Old 12-29-2015, 03:09 AM   #3443
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Ewww.

55/11, no ragrets.

I might do a 949 kit if it's prices for people people who cannot afford DA.
D/A cranks I ordered are 55/42.

Kit will not be entry level. Think Rapha fit, Castelli function, Pearl Izumi durability. It's basically kit for guys who ride a lot and are not on a team, like me. I want highly functional stuff, latest aero and materials. I'd rather pay extra now than be lamenting a flappy, hot, uncomfortable jersey that falls apart before the end of the season but saved me $50.
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Old 12-29-2015, 06:11 PM   #3444
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Emilio, would like to see picture of how you plan to do the rear wheel. When I did similar, I used a 32 hole rim, and taped over every 4th hole. ND side was 1X, D was 3X, but could have been 2X if deep rim. That way the offset drilling on the rim holes matched correctly, even though I had only 24 total spokes.
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Old 12-29-2015, 07:07 PM   #3445
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Emilio, would like to see picture of how you plan to do the rear wheel. When I did similar, I used a 32 hole rim, and taped over every 4th hole. ND side was 1X, D was 3X, but could have been 2X if deep rim. That way the offset drilling on the rim holes matched correctly, even though I had only 24 total spokes.
There are a few tutorials on doing split count lacing floating around the internet. Doing that on a hub with symmetrical spoke holes makes a weaker, heavier wheel so I chose not to go that route. Bikehubstore sells 16:8 hubs so a regular 24 hole rim can be built into something with the best possible strength to weight ratio.

Last edited by emilio700; 12-30-2015 at 02:20 AM.
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Old 12-29-2015, 07:31 PM   #3446
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The Industry Nine Ultralites on my new CX rig are laced 24/2:1. NDS tension is slightly higher than DS tension which is super cool. I don't know why every bike wheel isn't built that way.
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Old 12-30-2015, 09:03 AM   #3447
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FD and RD have not found a home yet. Bar end shifters and TT brake levers going on Johns (engineer here) TT build. Shoot me an email.
Email sent, I will pass. Thanks though!
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Old 12-30-2015, 09:29 AM   #3448
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There are a few tutorials on doing split count lacing floating around the internet. Doing that on a hub with symmetrical spoke holes makes a weaker, heavier wheel so I chose not to go that route. Bikehubstore sells 16:8 hubs so a regular 24 hole rim can be built into something with the best possible strength to weight ratio.
I don't think the 16-8 existed when I made mine. Still, I doubt it is any weaker or heavier than a wheel built with a 24 hole rim. Particularly this would be true on a deep section rim. Same number of spokes, just in sets of 3 like a Campy G3 arrangement.

Again, it would be best to use a rim that does not have offset drilled holes, if going with 24 holes.
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Old 12-30-2015, 12:33 PM   #3449
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D/A cranks I ordered are 55/42.
Please, refer to this gearing by it's proper name, "Belgian compact".
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:03 PM   #3450
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I don't think the 16-8 existed when I made mine. Still, I doubt it is any weaker or heavier than a wheel built with a 24 hole rim. Particularly this would be true on a deep section rim. Same number of spokes, just in sets of 3 like a Campy G3 arrangement.

Again, it would be best to use a rim that does not have offset drilled holes, if going with 24 holes.
Think about it. If you have varying gaps between the spokes and two different length spokes on one side, it is an inherently weaker structure than a wheel with evenly spaced spokes of equal length and tension. Not terrible if it's implemented well, but never as optimized as a symmetrical side of a wheel.

I gave John my old Power Tap Pro+ hub (ca 2008?) to John when I replaced it with a Zipp 404 FC on PT G3. It was on 32h Mavic Open Pro. We wanted to convert it to something a bit more aero. I considered a 16/8 lacing but decided against it because of the asymmetric tension issue. Not only big gaps at spoke bed, but uneven tension because of the different spoke lengths on same side. Examined carefully, you have a sine wave of tension around the rim. Again, one can make it work but I'd rather build something with evenly balanced tension. So I laced the PT hub into a 55mmx 25mm wide U shaped tubeless compatible clincher with CX-rays. 2x D and 0X ND. Front wheel was same rim/spokes a BHS 20h wide flange laced 0X heads out.

Aero drag straight on with the 32h is virtually the same as a 24h. Wattage to spin at 40kph is also about the same. Where the higher spoke count shows a little extra drag is between 10-20 but even then, losses are modest. John's 6-4", 172lbs and a pretty strong rider so stiffness and fatigue life were top of my list. That and we were stuck with a 32h hub.

It's interesting that the BHS hubs are 16h D, 8 h ND. My Zipp 404 FC (non PT) is 10h D 0x and 10H 2x ND. That's done to bring D & ND side tension virtually equal. One of the reason's modern Zipp's are so laterally stiff and long lasting despite the low spoke count.

I would have laced my rear TT wheel like the Zip but the hub is 16h D, 8h ND.

Some interesting info on spoke count aero/stiffness here: http://www.aeroweenie.com/assets/bac...spokecount.pdf

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Please, refer to this gearing by it's proper name, "Belgian compact".
Back in the day I ran a 56/42 on my TT bike and 54x11 for some road races. I don't make those kind of watts anymore and 11s allows a 23 or 25 cog without losing the 16 and /or 18 as it once did.
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:33 PM   #3451
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Some interesting info on spoke count aero/stiffness here: http://www.aeroweenie.com/assets/bac...spokecount.pdf

That's quite interesting and a bit perplexing at the same time.

Any idea when this was written?
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:02 PM   #3452
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That's quite interesting and a bit perplexing at the same time.

Any idea when this was written?
First paragraph: "and the wind tunnel information relates to
a 50 hour session occurring in January 2004 at Texas A&M University LSWT, during which these issues and others
were specifically tested."


More aero geek: http://www.aeroweenie.com/data.html
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:31 PM   #3453
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Yeah saw that but I hope bike aero knowledge has changed in the last 12 years.
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:35 PM   #3454
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Yeah saw that but I hope bike aero knowledge has changed in the last 12 years.
Wind tunnel and spokes haven't changed too much. Data is still relevant IMO. Perhaps not absolute values but certainly relative values. Modern wide, blunt nosed aero rim profiles have improved performance at angle past 5 over old pointy "V" rims but again, I'm sure the relative values are meaningful. In any case, why would you be concerned if I may ask?
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Old 12-30-2015, 03:39 PM   #3455
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Because I am becoming increasingly interested in bicycling.

Your second link is also pretty cool to page thru. But so far I see no dates on their data. It is just something that bothers me in general...like "transition vs shiv"...well which transition, which shiv? What about across brands, "shiv vs P4 vs trinity". i don't know much about those particular bikes, but Gen Y Shiv may be better, but Gen S Shiv may not. Just put a date on your data or papers.

Too bad there's only one link there with info about the Fuji Norcom Straight and it doesn't have data comparing it to it's rivals.

Last edited by TurboTim; 12-30-2015 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:36 PM   #3456
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Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
Because I am becoming increasingly interested in bicycling.

Your second link is also pretty cool to page thru. But so far I see no dates on their data. It is just something that bothers me in general...like "transition vs shiv"...well which transition, which shiv? What about across brands, "shiv vs P4 vs trinity". i don't know much about those particular bikes, but Gen Y Shiv may be better, but Gen S Shiv may not. Just put a date on your data or papers.

Too bad there's only one link there with info about the Fuji Norcom Straight and it doesn't have data comparing it to it's rivals.
I wouldn't obsess over the frame too much. Rider position is biggest factor by far, rider clothing second. Everything else is lower down the $/wattage benefit ratio. The Norcom is among the best but I'm sure it falls behind the top frames by a handful of watts. Just keeping my head up and not looking down during a TT is worth something like 3x what the worst vs best frame gets you.

One might liken it to obsessing over a few ounces of wheel weight on your Miata and running wheels one inch too narrow to save those ounces. Focus on getting your fit on the TT bike dialed, get your body making full wattage when in the position, wear the slipperiest rider gear you can afford, decent wheels and learn how to suffer for 20 or 40k. The frame is much less important to final results than the aforementioned.

It's fun to geek out and aero and want the best, who doesn't. Just don't get into the mindset that it will be impossible for you to reach your goals if you pick the "wrong" frame. I have had my *** kicked by better prepared riders on two wheeled pieces of **** more times than I can recall.
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Old 12-30-2015, 05:07 PM   #3457
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Emilio,

Cross does not affect tension. Grab one of your Zipp rear wheels and pluck the spokes. You will hear that the ND has much less tension than D.

Still, I'm not sure you are picturing what I built. All D spokes are same length, and are laced like any 32 hole wheel would be laced, with same tensions. Perfectly symmetrical.
All ND spokes are the same length and are completly symmetrical, but only 8 spokes. Crossed because Campy does not allow radial spoking on these hubs.
Both sides are also radially symmetrical in such a manner that there is no torque induced into the hub. I did not lace the ND spokes but equalized the heads-in heads-out.
Here are pics:
Drive Side:


Non-Drive Side:


Complete Wheel:


Note, I'm not asking for agreement, just want us to both be on the same page.
Attached Thumbnails
If FEMA had the bicycles, would it fund Hustler's manlet bib?-80-drive_side_27573169dd6cf26ee8b95fe607b6a39b3eafabb8.jpg   If FEMA had the bicycles, would it fund Hustler's manlet bib?-80-non_drive_257534815405bb1e7914075bfb81e0f3a2d58882.jpg   If FEMA had the bicycles, would it fund Hustler's manlet bib?-80-both_sides_de48954674ae22bd7add3c866b35a5c39b094475.jpg  
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Old 12-30-2015, 05:15 PM   #3458
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I wouldn't obsess over the frame too much. Rider position is biggest factor by far, rider clothing second. Everything else is lower down the $/wattage benefit ratio. The Norcom is among the best but I'm sure it falls behind the top frames by a handful of watts. Just keeping my head up and not looking down during a TT is worth something like 3x what the worst vs best frame gets you.
100% correct. Position trumps all else. Take a road frame, add a set-forward post to allow you to rotate the body around the crankset to get the aero tuck without folding yourself up. Get some clamp-on areo bars. Now you are 90% there on improvement and 10% there on the cost of a full-on aero set-up. YMMV
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Old 12-30-2015, 08:00 PM   #3459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
Because I am becoming increasingly interested in bicycling.

Your second link is also pretty cool to page thru. But so far I see no dates on their data. It is just something that bothers me in general...like "transition vs shiv"...well which transition, which shiv? What about across brands, "shiv vs P4 vs trinity". i don't know much about those particular bikes, but Gen Y Shiv may be better, but Gen S Shiv may not. Just put a date on your data or papers.

Too bad there's only one link there with info about the Fuji Norcom Straight and it doesn't have data comparing it to it's rivals.

You're absolutely right. I hate most of the garbage that comes out of most 'tests' from the industry. No one will cite their results, procedure, equipment, etc. Big S has their own wind-tunnel, says their bike saves X seconds of X miles... Without actual data... cool story bro.
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Old 12-30-2015, 08:21 PM   #3460
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You're absolutely right. I hate most of the garbage that comes out of most 'tests' from the industry. No one will cite their results, procedure, equipment, etc. Big S has their own wind-tunnel, says their bike saves X seconds of X miles... Without actual data... cool story bro.
Big S's "data" on the new Venge Vias was an utter joke. Most of the gain was from the rider changing to a jersey that wasn't flapping around then lowering the stem. Thanks guys, just saved me $12k!

I'm sure the bike is fast but the gains they purported were comical if you didn't read the fine print.
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