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Old 01-15-2014, 01:39 PM   #881
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I saw a vid of Contador going up 10% grade in the big-ring, probably when he was EPO'd. I heard that Savington is a bauce climber and only using the big ring.
Contador was/is a modern high RPM climber. In European pro races with short steep <200m ~10% climbs, the front group will hit the base at a ballistic 45-50kph. The race favorites will often hit those climbs in the big ring. 500-600 watts for 15-20s. In Belgium, the race might hit 15 of those hills over the course of a 240km mile race.

Up a long 10% climb though, no one uses the big ring. That's suicide. Many pros in the Vuelta (20-28% pitches) have taken to running either compact gearsets or giant pie plate low cogs on the cluster so they can stay seated up those sections.

Andrew has the right body type, just needs to look like a featherless bird/concentration camp victim with his shirt off to fly up the long climbs. Even tall, burly riders can fly up short climbs if they're fit.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:58 PM   #882
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Andrew has the right body type, just needs to look like a featherless bird/concentration camp victim with his shirt off to fly up the long climbs. Even tall, burly riders can fly up short climbs if they're fit.
My growing interest in beer will likely prevent my long-climb prowess, unfortunately. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:33 PM   #883
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You need a 54cm bike? serious- i have one for sale- not as nice as that giant though. [/spam]
Link?
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:38 PM   #884
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Contador was/is a modern high RPM climber. In European pro races with short steep <200m ~10% climbs, the front group will hit the base at a ballistic 45-50kph. The race favorites will often hit those climbs in the big ring. 500-600 watts for 15-20s. In Belgium, the race might hit 15 of those hills over the course of a 240km mile race.

Up a long 10% climb though, no one uses the big ring. That's suicide. Many pros in the Vuelta (20-28% pitches) have taken to running either compact gearsets or giant pie plate low cogs on the cluster so they can stay seated up those sections.

Andrew has the right body type, just needs to look like a featherless bird/concentration camp victim with his shirt off to fly up the long climbs. Even tall, burly riders can fly up short climbs if they're fit.
There's a 10% hill here that I zig-zag up in the 36/28 gears, lol.
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:45 PM   #885
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Apparently everyone has a 54cm bike for sale.

FS: Primus Mootry 54cm custom steel fixed/SS road bike
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:49 PM   #886
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I'm not buying anything until I'm sure that I want to ride again, and possibly get one of these plates taken out.
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:42 AM   #887
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Link?
2012 Trek Madone 4.5
Carbon frame/fork, 105 components... I'm asking $1100- free shipping for you

CL:
Trek Madone 4.5 54cm


2012 Madone 4.5 H2 (Compact) - Bike Archive - Trek Bicycle

[/spam]
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:45 AM   #888
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2012 Trek Madone 4.5
Carbon frame/fork, 105 components... I'm asking $1100- free shipping for you

CL:
Trek Madone 4.5 54cm


2012 Madone 4.5 H2 (Compact) - Bike Archive - Trek Bicycle

[/spam]
Too bad I'm not drunk anymore and unwilling to spend money. You're in luck though, the day is young.

My bicycle lust is worse after the injury. I guess I'll beat myself on the trainer now instead.
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Old 01-16-2014, 02:44 PM   #889
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Seriouspost itt: a few of the guys I ride with on weekday mornings and Sundays are planning to do this century ride in May: Cyclists for Cultural Exchange

(my interest in "international cultural understanding" is rather limited, I just want to fulfill my masochistic desire to get repeatedly dropped by 1199 other riders in the mountains)

I started riding at the end of October after spending 10 years off the bike. ~125 watts for 60 minutes felt like I was going to keel over. Today, I'm down 20lbs and counting, and I can do 150w average over 2 hours and then do it again 2 days later without feeling like death. My schedule will allow me to do 50-75 miles a week, and I can carve out days for longer weekend rides as I get closer to the century. Can I reasonably expect to prepare for a century in ~4 months given my progress so far and my riding schedule?

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Old 01-16-2014, 02:49 PM   #890
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I went from 8 mile trips to 88 miles in less than six months. Just start pushing it on base mileage, I'm sure you can do it.
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Old 01-16-2014, 03:00 PM   #891
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lol @ Strava averages...there's no way I'm making 220w for 2 hours, lol:
Bike Ride Profile | Night pop, finished with the front group for a change. near Richardson | Times and Records | Strava
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Old 01-16-2014, 03:11 PM   #892
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followed you on Strava.

I only have like 3 rides on there though LOL
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Old 01-16-2014, 03:25 PM   #893
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followed you on Strava.

I only have like 3 rides on there though LOL
I don't have jack ******* **** now since my arm is broken. I plan to come back angry though.
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Old 01-16-2014, 03:39 PM   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Seriouspost itt: a few of the guys I ride with on weekday mornings and Sundays are planning to do this century ride in May: Cyclists for Cultural Exchange

(my interest in "international cultural understanding" is rather limited, I just want to fulfill my masochistic desire to get repeatedly dropped by 1199 other riders in the mountains)

I started riding at the end of October after spending 10 years off the bike. ~125 watts for 60 minutes felt like I was going to keel over. Today, I'm down 20lbs and counting, and I can do 150w average over 2 hours and then do it again 2 days later without feeling like death. My schedule will allow me to do 50-75 miles a week, and I can carve out days for longer weekend rides as I get closer to the century. Can I reasonably expect to prepare for a century in ~4 months given my progress so far and my riding schedule?
Easily.

A few basic training guidelines/caveats:

- Try to go no longer than 72hrs between training rides. The human body adapts to repeated stress but will "turn off" if the stress cycles are too far apart. This is why people that do big hard rides only on weekends tend to plateau in fitness, just staying at one level forever.

-Do not shy away from high force/ high power intervals and seemingly too-short rides. You want 200w for 2hrs to be easy? Ride 300w for 20 minutes over and over again. You want to be able to recover form those sporadic 10s 400w bursts to close gaps during that 2-3hr 200w ride? Do 10s 600w bursts during a 45 min lunch ride.

- The biggie. Do some crazy long training rides. A staple of my pre-season is 6hr+ LSD rides where I average just under 200w with a few short bursts to 300-400w. As soon as you are able, try to do those 3-6hr rides back to back. Nothing makes your gas tank bigger as quickly as doing back to back big miles. Hurts like hell at first but that first time you ride up your house Sunday afternoon after a 10-12hr weekend with almost full wattage still in your legs, you know you're ready to go.

- Focus on high smooth cadences. Higher cadence uses more oxygen but less muscle glycogen and ATP. Spinning a higher cadence basically "saves" your muscles for those short bursts of high force when closing gaps.

- Do hard intervals at a wide range of cadences. It's typical for the really fit rider that lives at 90rpm all the time to blow up the minute they have to ramp to 120rpm to close a gap. Get your body used to high power from 50-120rpm in the middle of training rides and it won't be such a shock to the system when it happens at mile 80.

-Become a student of the wind. Even a scant 5w conserved for 15s can be the difference between getting popped off the back or hanging in. Be constantly looking for the "quiet" spot where you have the least drag. Smoother pavement, sitting lower on the bike, wearing clothing that isn't flapping around and of course positioning in the pack. In a big cross wind, that can be almost alongside the rider you're getting a tow from. The common mistake for a newer ride is to feel great early in the ride and waste energy that they won't have later on when the group accelerates. Small gap opens when the group is still going easy, find someone else going across and latch on even though you can easily make it yourself. Save those ergs.

-Hit every hill at the front of the group, near the right or left side. Slide back through the group as you go up the hill, even if you can hang at the front.

-High power means high rpm. Don't get into the of clicking into a much harder gear to get across a gap if you are struggling, just accelerate in the gear you are already in. Make your body used to 110rpm when it needs more power, not 60rpm.

-Make water you new favorite drink. If you don't pee almost clear most of the time, you're dehydrated. Even a tiny bit of dehydration reduces muscular force tremendously. If you are dehydrated and suddenly drink a bunch of water, you'll have to pee right away and it's inconvenient if you're sleeping, driving, watching a movie, whatever. That's because your body has been waiting for some water to excrete wastes. Stay dehydrated and you won't have a backlog of stuff to pee out so you won't be peeing constantly.
_________

Course specific notes

Big climb is right out of the blocks. Make sure you have enough gearing on your bike to be able to comfortably spin 90rpm up the entire climb without going out of your target HR zone. That target is about what your HR stabilizes at on a 2hr solo or non aggressive ride with friends. As you get dehydrated later in the ride, your HR will climb even though your power is dropping.

Short steep pitches late in the ride. They look like killers on the profile. Do your best to use high cadence for as long as possible before them. At some point you might reach your aerobic limits and have to grind low rpm. Hopefully that doesn't happen until the very end and your muscles are not already too fatigued. If you have been relying on your aerobic capacity well by keeping a high cadence, it will feel like having fresh legs the first time you get out of the saddle and stomp for high force at mile 85.

Start eating as soon as the ride starts. Nibble a few times an hour, sip steadily.

.. wow that's a long post
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:19 PM   #895
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I started doing two 70-90 mile solo rides every week @17mph+ and that's when I felt like I was getting stronger, the two weekly 35 mile group rides at 20mph+ are more like sprints. I could feel the benefits of both types of rides.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:59 PM   #896
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Thanks for this, E.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
- Focus on high smooth cadences. Higher cadence uses more oxygen but less muscle glycogen and ATP. Spinning a higher cadence basically "saves" your muscles for those short bursts of high force when closing gaps.
Interesting, I just started doing the opposite of this. I attempted to do this up one of the steeper local grades on Sunday a bit faster than I'm used to (only 0.2mi but 10-11%). Nice and smooth, 110rpm, out of the saddle. All I got was chest pain and a 196bpm spike. No bueno. On Tuesday, I focused on cogging up 2-3 gears and reducing RPM on short climbs, and had one of my best rides in a long time, no big BPM spikes despite an average HR of 171 over the entire ride, and a good sore feeling in the legs the rest of the day. My lungs clearly need to catch up to my legs. Any tips for increasing aerobic capacity (aside from HTFU)?

Quote:
Course specific notes

Big climb is right out of the blocks. Make sure you have enough gearing on your bike to be able to comfortably spin 90rpm up the entire climb without going out of your target HR zone. That target is about what your HR stabilizes at on a 2hr solo or non aggressive ride with friends. As you get dehydrated later in the ride, your HR will climb even though your power is dropping.

Short steep pitches late in the ride. They look like killers on the profile. Do your best to use high cadence for as long as possible before them. At some point you might reach your aerobic limits and have to grind low rpm. Hopefully that doesn't happen until the very end and your muscles are not already too fatigued. If you have been relying on your aerobic capacity well by keeping a high cadence, it will feel like having fresh legs the first time you get out of the saddle and stomp for high force at mile 85.
Just glanced at the course myself. I've done climbs that steep before, but nothing sustained. Bike has compact crank and 12-27 in back. No desire to ever go 53/39, given our local terrain. I know of at least one local climb that I can attempt to simulate that first big bump. I have the benefit of living at the base of a 2500ft mountain range, so our "standard" hilly route is ~30 miles with 1800ft of elevation change. Example: Bike Ride Profile | Full Quarry Loop with Alpine Bump near Mountain View | Times and Records | Strava
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Old 01-16-2014, 07:15 PM   #897
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Thanks for this, E.

Interesting, I just started doing the opposite of this. I attempted to do this up one of the steeper local grades on Sunday a bit faster than I'm used to (only 0.2mi but 10-11%). Nice and smooth, 110rpm, out of the saddle. All I got was chest pain and a 196bpm spike. No bueno. On Tuesday, I focused on cogging up 2-3 gears and reducing RPM on short climbs, and had one of my best rides in a long time, no big BPM spikes despite an average HR of 171 over the entire ride, and a good sore feeling in the legs the rest of the day. My lungs clearly need to catch up to my legs. Any tips for increasing aerobic capacity (aside from HTFU)?
Unless you actually sprinting at full power, standing climbing should be done at a lower cadence, 60-80rpm. >90rpm seated is just for closing gaps, shorts bursts. The rest of the time you should be trying to hold 80-90rpm seated sustained on long climbs. You need to have exceptional aerobic fitness and power to weight to be able to climb standing for sustained periods. Only the absolute best pro, pure climbers in the world can do it.

Running out of aerobic fitness is why it was easier to sustain a lower rpm. Bryan Wood, back in his cycling days was the consumate big gear low rpm masher until I started training him. 12 weeks of spinning a gear restricted fixie on club rides turned him into an efficient high rpm 195lb Wiggins clone. Point is, even with the "wrong" body type, any rider can greatly improve their aerobic efficiency with focused training.

Easiest way is to simply force yourself to use the smallest gear you can spin seated and not bounce. At first it won't be very fast and/or you'll tire quickly. In a few weeks you'll find you can spin faster at a lower HR and then, you'll discover you're actually putting out considerable watts.. and your legs don't hurt.

There are different energy pathways a cyclist (or any athlete) enlists depending on the work needed. Ideally, you get a good idea of what load the challenge will present and focus training on the relevant systems.

A century for someone that has been off the bike for a long time will have specific workloads. No 35mph time trialing in a peloton. No 1100 watt sprints. No 40rpm sand pit cyclocross grinds. You will have long unbroken periods of 80-90rpm sub 200w pedaling with the steady climbs interspersed. Not much accelerating I suspect. So high demand on aerobic threshold efficiency, no demand for peak power or hard acceleration, some demand for aerobic threshold power. The challenge will be to not burn all your matches on that first climb so I'd also focus on that. Figure out how long that climb will be, what wattage you need for your gearing then do intervals of 40-80% climb length at just above the power level required. By the time the century comes, you should easily be able to handle that climb at target power while keep the powder dry for those kickers two hours later

Gotta maintain hydration and decent blood sugar level for about 6 hrs. So start doing rides as close to that length as possible. Your gut requires blood to process food for fuel. Problem is it's all being used to transport oxygen to your screaming legs. Every rider has a limit of how many calories their body can absorb per hr when near aerobic threshold HR. That same new rider will also burn calories less efficiently, generating more watts on body heat than torque. With training, you'll use your calories more efficiently and need to eat less per watt. You'll also be able to absorb more water and calories per/hr at your aerobic threshold.

The human body, stores roughly 2hrs worth of easily accessed muscle glycogen (fuel) regardless of training level. 300lb couch potato and Tour winner both need to eat before the 2hr point in exercise to avoid bonking.
That's relevant because you never want to run the tank that low. If you do, it takes a while to come back. That's where defizzed Cokes and high glycemic sugars can save a ride. Problem is they trigger an insulin response in an otherwise healthy system. That's bad because they make your body resist all the low glycemic stuff in your stomach. So you end up switching gears in metabolism and need to keep feeding it junkfood at a high rate to keep the fires burning. So avoid the easy high glycemic stuff until the end of the ride. Do your best to fuel with the lowest glycemic but calorically dense and easily digested foods for as long as possible. In general, the best energy gels/fluids use maltodextrin almost exclusively. Expensive but easy to digest and lower glycemic than say, HFCS or plain refined sugar. Also experiment with what foods you can get down with elevated HR. Some stuff is fine when you're putting around but impossible to handle or choke down when you're struggling at the back.

Also good to try to do that first 2-2.5 hrs of any long training ride without stopping. That works the system harder and helps to train the body to be fuel efficient.

I rely on Hammer Nutrition (sounds like an ad, lol) gel. You can buy their gel in powder and either make your own gels or add it to your energy drink. HEED sports drink is electrolytes with a modest portion on maltodextrin. Super easy on the stomach when your're hammering.

I also like PBJ sandwiches. Everyone has their own fave bike food but it's critical that you find what works for you.

Power wise, it's a long day just under 200watts with a 45 minute 250-300w climb early on and those ugly 1-2 minute 250-400w grunts late in the ride. No need for super high (120+) cadences so we can leave that out for now. The more efficient you can remain for 6hrs just under 200w, the more energy you'll have for those kickers late in the ride. On your LSD (long slow distance) training ride, I'd throw in some intervals to simulate
those loads. You won't acceleration those climbs in the century, but merely want to hold pace in the group as the stronger riders lay down the watts at the front.

One thing to remember in group rides is to never ease off the watts until you are past the crest and starting to accelerate down hill again. The strong riders will never coast at the crest but instead keep the watage up and zoom down the backside like a roller coaster. Nothing more soul shattering than turning yourself inside out for a half hour up some god-forsaken hill then getting popped off after the summit because you sat up 3 pedal strokes too soon.

Last edited by emilio700; 01-16-2014 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:50 PM   #898
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Risotto "cakes" for me. Spicy bacon, over-cooked risotto, mix-in eggs, ball up, wrap in plastic.
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Old 01-16-2014, 10:18 PM   #899
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You dudes both have one more strava follower...
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Old 01-17-2014, 04:35 PM   #900
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
You need to have exceptional aerobic fitness and power to weight to be able to climb standing for sustained periods. Only the absolute best pro, pure climbers in the world can do it.
Oh.

Quote:
Running out of aerobic fitness is why it was easier to sustain a lower rpm. Bryan Wood, back in his cycling days was the consumate big gear low rpm masher until I started training him. 12 weeks of spinning a gear restricted fixie on club rides turned him into an efficient high rpm 195lb Wiggins clone. Point is, even with the "wrong" body type, any rider can greatly improve their aerobic efficiency with focused training.

Easiest way is to simply force yourself to use the smallest gear you can spin seated and not bounce. At first it won't be very fast and/or you'll tire quickly. In a few weeks you'll find you can spin faster at a lower HR and then, you'll discover you're actually putting out considerable watts.. and your legs don't hurt.
I will definitely do this. Thanks.

Quote:
In general, the best energy gels/fluids use maltodextrin almost exclusively. Expensive but easy to digest and lower glycemic than say, HFCS or plain refined sugar. Also experiment with what foods you can get down with elevated HR. Some stuff is fine when you're putting around but impossible to handle or choke down when you're struggling at the back.

I rely on Hammer Nutrition (sounds like an ad, lol) gel. You can buy their gel in powder and either make your own gels or add it to your energy drink. HEED sports drink is electrolytes with a modest portion on maltodextrin. Super easy on the stomach when your're hammering.

I also like PBJ sandwiches. Everyone has their own fave bike food but it's critical that you find what works for you.
Awesome, thanks. I haven't started taking food out on rides yet (longest ride so far is 2h30m and I can do that distance in less time now) but I know I'll have to start. Do you just get really good at messing around with Ziploc bags for gels and sandwiches, or is there a better way?
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