"new" FM II in person, why I say BEGI is better
01-25-2007, 03:25 PM
#83
textbooks wont give you real world data though--thats what we're all after. if you put a probe at the turbo outlet, IC inlet, and IC outlet, you'll know for sure.
if you use a metal IC inlet pipe, you might be able to run a smaller IC.
what I said was not that it reduces the outlet temp, but it reduces the efficiency of the IC. lower delta T = lower efficiency.
but then you could argue that if you're shedding heat on that pipe, why aren't you using another little IC up there? or why isn't the pipe finned or something?
My guess is it's because of the lack of airflow in the engine bay.
if you use a metal IC inlet pipe, you might be able to run a smaller IC.
what I said was not that it reduces the outlet temp, but it reduces the efficiency of the IC. lower delta T = lower efficiency.
but then you could argue that if you're shedding heat on that pipe, why aren't you using another little IC up there? or why isn't the pipe finned or something?
My guess is it's because of the lack of airflow in the engine bay.
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01-25-2007, 05:46 PM
#89
the contradiction was that he stated intake temp at the manifold is what's important and then continued complaining about reducing the IC efficiency, which isn't going to have an affect on intake temp at the manifold... only the delta across the IC.
At this point people are argueing just to argue.
At this point people are argueing just to argue.
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01-25-2007, 05:53 PM
#90
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well I could care less who bashes who and whats more effecient shedding some heat en route or retaining it for the IC... but I was looking for 180degree silicon couplers today(I dont think they exist) and I found this page.
http://www.turbohoses.com/
on their faq they have some interesting statements
I like number 4, 8, and 10 but I thought 12 and 14 were particularly relevant to this thread.
I would guess that the FM pipe is around this spec, if not made by the same people, these guys seem to do a lot of custom and bulk work.
http://www.turbohoses.com/
on their faq they have some interesting statements
I like number 4, 8, and 10 but I thought 12 and 14 were particularly relevant to this thread.
12. How much PSI can/should a silicone hose be able to handle?
Most silicone hoses (depending on reinforcement material) handle 20 to over 200 psi at non-operating temperature. However, when a hose is under operating temperature the burst rating diminishes by over 50% depending on the temperature the hose is subject to. Another factor to consider is the diameter and length of the hose. The larger the diameter, the longer the hose, the less burst resistance it will have when under heat combined with pressure.
Example: 2"ID x 3"L can have a burst rating of 20 to nearly 250psi at non-operating temperature.
4"ID x 6"L can have a burst rating of 100 psi at non-operating temperature.
Our 3 1/2"ID x 6"L and 4"ID x 6"L have been tested to exceed 65+psi at full operating temperature (250 deg f.)
Most silicone hoses (depending on reinforcement material) handle 20 to over 200 psi at non-operating temperature. However, when a hose is under operating temperature the burst rating diminishes by over 50% depending on the temperature the hose is subject to. Another factor to consider is the diameter and length of the hose. The larger the diameter, the longer the hose, the less burst resistance it will have when under heat combined with pressure.
Example: 2"ID x 3"L can have a burst rating of 20 to nearly 250psi at non-operating temperature.
4"ID x 6"L can have a burst rating of 100 psi at non-operating temperature.
Our 3 1/2"ID x 6"L and 4"ID x 6"L have been tested to exceed 65+psi at full operating temperature (250 deg f.)
14. If I only run 10-15psi, do I really need a 600 d. resistant hose?
The average silicone hose will have a heat tolerance of less than 320 d f. At 15 psi, the air temperature out of the turbo is 300 d. Having a hose near the turbo and exhaust manifold will yield even higher external and internal temps.
The average silicone hose will have a heat tolerance of less than 320 d f. At 15 psi, the air temperature out of the turbo is 300 d. Having a hose near the turbo and exhaust manifold will yield even higher external and internal temps.
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01-26-2007, 09:38 AM
#91
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the contradiction was that he stated intake temp at the manifold is what's important and then continued complaining about reducing the IC efficiency, which isn't going to have an affect on intake temp at the manifold... only the delta across the IC.
At this point people are argueing just to argue.
At this point people are argueing just to argue.
I'm still curious though... the results of the BEGi shootout offer would be sweet to see.
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01-26-2007, 01:01 PM
#92
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And consider this, FM has the same supply problems now that they did when we were supplying them. I am not saying we are perfect, however.
if you use a metal IC inlet pipe, you might be able to run a smaller IC.
what I said was not that it reduces the outlet temp, but it reduces the efficiency of the IC. lower delta T = lower efficiency.
Since the cooling effects IC piping greatly increase performance (apparently) why doesn't BEGI use copper piping? It's readily available, more thermoconductive than SS and probably cheaper.
What kind of metal?
I'm still curious though... the results of the BEGi shootout offer would be sweet to see.
Stephanie
Last edited by Stephanie Turner; 01-26-2007 at 01:20 PM.
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01-26-2007, 04:38 PM
#93
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Well Sid's information and Stephanie's information, as well as stephanie's willingness to be available as well as try and provide a comparison pretty much sells it for me. I've never really agree'd with FM's methods but I can pretty much lay to rest that I don't agree with their use of silcon hosing for the turbo.
Will be waiting to hear the dyno results!
Will be waiting to hear the dyno results!
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01-26-2007, 05:44 PM
#99
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That would be cool, I mean hell channeling a dead rockstar that has a deep knowledge about silicon piping for Turbo charged cars in a miata specific application. I would be impressed with myself.
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01-26-2007, 07:22 PM
#100
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FWIW these guys seem to like silicon piping on 700hp twin turbo Z06's...
http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/corvette/c6.htm
looks just like the FM stuff to me
http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/corvette/c6.htm
looks just like the FM stuff to me
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