Sensitive throttle pedal in non sporty cars? Blame the average driver
07-22-2013, 11:47 AM
#1
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Sensitive throttle pedal in non sporty cars? Blame the average driver
DBW Throttle Characteristics - The AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board
" . . . . drivers considered subjectively to be more aggressive in nature preferred a lower IIP (Throttle gain). This indicates that they prefer or require more control over the available power"
So more aggressive drivers who actually *use* their car's power, prefer a more linear throttle pedal, and the type of drivers who barely accelerate when the light turns green want to do so with 1 millimeter of throttle travel.
" . . . . drivers considered subjectively to be more aggressive in nature preferred a lower IIP (Throttle gain). This indicates that they prefer or require more control over the available power"
So more aggressive drivers who actually *use* their car's power, prefer a more linear throttle pedal, and the type of drivers who barely accelerate when the light turns green want to do so with 1 millimeter of throttle travel.
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07-22-2013, 02:53 PM
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I don't like agrresive tip-in especially in the winter in a torquey truck. Should be linear is my preference.
You can even get cams for dirtbike throttles to increase/decrease throttle cable travel over the same rotation amount.
G2 Ergonomics | Throttle Tubes and Moto PartsG2 Ergonomics
You can even get cams for dirtbike throttles to increase/decrease throttle cable travel over the same rotation amount.
G2 Ergonomics | Throttle Tubes and Moto PartsG2 Ergonomics
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07-22-2013, 06:41 PM
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I've driven a couple of DBW rental cars, and while the feel of the pedal itself seems a bit odd, I've not been unable to master the throttle in all but one of them.
The 2010 VW CC defies me to drive it properly. Seems like that car has a deliberate 2 second lag and about a 20° lead-in dead spot engineered into it.
You press on the throttle, and nothing.
You press on it some more, still nothing.
You press on it a bit more, and THEN it thinks that you're John-*******-Force doing an NHRA Funnycar launch.
This is especially annoying when it happens during your first day driving in Germany, in the dead of winter, on snow-covered roads. I literally cannot imagine what the folks at VW were trying to accomplish when they programmed that thing.
They have managed to accurately simulate the behavior of a '90-'93 Miata being driven up a hill on a cold morning immediately after engine start. (Those of you who have owned stock '90-'93 Miatas with the original ECU still in place will know the exact behavior which I am describing.)
The 2010 VW CC defies me to drive it properly. Seems like that car has a deliberate 2 second lag and about a 20° lead-in dead spot engineered into it.
You press on the throttle, and nothing.
You press on it some more, still nothing.
You press on it a bit more, and THEN it thinks that you're John-*******-Force doing an NHRA Funnycar launch.
This is especially annoying when it happens during your first day driving in Germany, in the dead of winter, on snow-covered roads. I literally cannot imagine what the folks at VW were trying to accomplish when they programmed that thing.
They have managed to accurately simulate the behavior of a '90-'93 Miata being driven up a hill on a cold morning immediately after engine start. (Those of you who have owned stock '90-'93 Miatas with the original ECU still in place will know the exact behavior which I am describing.)
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07-22-2013, 07:47 PM
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Easier implementation of stability-control.
Easier implementation of cruise-control.
Eliminates need for a separate idle valve.
Allows for slight improvement in accel emissions.
(etc.)
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07-22-2013, 08:26 PM
#16
My brothers MkV GTI has this weird lag on lift, like the throttle takes 1/2 second to close or something. There were times driving it where I was on the brake while the car was still accelerating.
Otherwise it never had the lag of the MkVI you guys are talking about.
Otherwise it never had the lag of the MkVI you guys are talking about.
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07-22-2013, 09:08 PM
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The 1992 honda accord was, and still is, an excellent car. Yet, it has OBDI, A throttle cable, and a 4speed auto. And it's damn reliable and easy to work with. Just because there are incremental gains from a technology, doesn't mean it's better.
I remember the first time I went to rev a newer honda from under the hood..... and saw no throttle return spring.
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07-23-2013, 07:27 AM
#18
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one time i read this: Subaru Drive By Wire and How to Improve it - NASIOC
I didn't come away any smarter.
I have played around with my DBW maps and I was able to make nominal improvements in how the car feels (similar to the post linked above), but the actual throttle response compared to a drive-by-cable is seriously lacking and I'm unsure how to improve it further. There is a measurable delay in, say, 2nd gear if you're cruising, lift, and then hit the accelerator again, you can feel the injectors kick on late and the car finally move. I have increased my acceleration enrichments, and lowered the threshold for enrichments, and it helped a little but it's still not perfect. I'd say it feels like a miata running a freshly installed untuned MS that needs to tune EAE and AE.
Vlad keeps trying to convince me it's the most amazing invention in the history of the world, but I still dont get it. I've never complained about drive-by-cable, I've only complained about DBW. So that tells me DBW is inferior.
I mean when you really think about it, what's going to control the throttle better, your brain?
Or your brain moving your foot, a pedal position sensor sending that data to an ecu, the ecu running an algorithm to interpret the data through the requested torque table, the ecu sending that data to an actuator, and the actuator finally doing what your brain first asked?
I didn't come away any smarter.
I have played around with my DBW maps and I was able to make nominal improvements in how the car feels (similar to the post linked above), but the actual throttle response compared to a drive-by-cable is seriously lacking and I'm unsure how to improve it further. There is a measurable delay in, say, 2nd gear if you're cruising, lift, and then hit the accelerator again, you can feel the injectors kick on late and the car finally move. I have increased my acceleration enrichments, and lowered the threshold for enrichments, and it helped a little but it's still not perfect. I'd say it feels like a miata running a freshly installed untuned MS that needs to tune EAE and AE.
Vlad keeps trying to convince me it's the most amazing invention in the history of the world, but I still dont get it. I've never complained about drive-by-cable, I've only complained about DBW. So that tells me DBW is inferior.
I mean when you really think about it, what's going to control the throttle better, your brain?
Or your brain moving your foot, a pedal position sensor sending that data to an ecu, the ecu running an algorithm to interpret the data through the requested torque table, the ecu sending that data to an actuator, and the actuator finally doing what your brain first asked?
Last edited by Braineack; 07-23-2013 at 07:42 AM.
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07-23-2013, 08:13 AM
#19
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A DBW system could simulate a cable but they choose not to.
They choose to make a system they think the average person wants to feel. Which is nothing to scare you if you blip it but lots of torque without moving the pedal much so it feels powerful day to day.
Dann
They choose to make a system they think the average person wants to feel. Which is nothing to scare you if you blip it but lots of torque without moving the pedal much so it feels powerful day to day.
Dann
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07-23-2013, 09:21 AM
#20
one time i read this: Subaru Drive By Wire and How to Improve it - NASIOC
I didn't come away any smarter.
I have played around with my DBW maps and I was able to make nominal improvements in how the car feels (similar to the post linked above), but the actual throttle response compared to a drive-by-cable is seriously lacking and I'm unsure how to improve it further. There is a measurable delay in, say, 2nd gear if you're cruising, lift, and then hit the accelerator again, you can feel the injectors kick on late and the car finally move. I have increased my acceleration enrichments, and lowered the threshold for enrichments, and it helped a little but it's still not perfect. I'd say it feels like a miata running a freshly installed untuned MS that needs to tune EAE and AE.
Vlad keeps trying to convince me it's the most amazing invention in the history of the world, but I still dont get it. I've never complained about drive-by-cable, I've only complained about DBW. So that tells me DBW is inferior.
I mean when you really think about it, what's going to control the throttle better, your brain?
Or your brain moving your foot, a pedal position sensor sending that data to an ecu, the ecu running an algorithm to interpret the data through the requested torque table, the ecu sending that data to an actuator, and the actuator finally doing what your brain first asked?
I didn't come away any smarter.
I have played around with my DBW maps and I was able to make nominal improvements in how the car feels (similar to the post linked above), but the actual throttle response compared to a drive-by-cable is seriously lacking and I'm unsure how to improve it further. There is a measurable delay in, say, 2nd gear if you're cruising, lift, and then hit the accelerator again, you can feel the injectors kick on late and the car finally move. I have increased my acceleration enrichments, and lowered the threshold for enrichments, and it helped a little but it's still not perfect. I'd say it feels like a miata running a freshly installed untuned MS that needs to tune EAE and AE.
Vlad keeps trying to convince me it's the most amazing invention in the history of the world, but I still dont get it. I've never complained about drive-by-cable, I've only complained about DBW. So that tells me DBW is inferior.
I mean when you really think about it, what's going to control the throttle better, your brain?
Or your brain moving your foot, a pedal position sensor sending that data to an ecu, the ecu running an algorithm to interpret the data through the requested torque table, the ecu sending that data to an actuator, and the actuator finally doing what your brain first asked?
your car in general is very unresponsive. super low cr, miles of pre-turbo exhaust piping, and it doesn't help that its all corked up with the stock intake downpipe and exhaust since you refuse to modify it. It will always be way less responsive than your miata.
Go drive a drive-by-cable subaru (any 02-05 wrx will do) and suddenly your pipe dreams of dbc "fixing" everything will be shattered and you will realize your theory is fail and aidz.
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