Do electronic wastegates exist?
04-19-2012, 01:52 PM
#1
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Do electronic wastegates exist?
I mean like a stepper motor or esectric solenoid or something that opens and closes the wastegate flapper directly. I can't imagine nobody has done this in 2012, but why isn't it more common? I know it would be more complex, but it would also be more versatile and programmable, wouldn't it?
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04-19-2012, 03:09 PM
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I have seen it on modern electronic heavy diesels that have to meet the newest emissions standards. It was an IHI on a ~12 liter Hino six cyl. It also had a sensor for turbine shaft speed. The engine was in a Kawasaki wheel loader.
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04-19-2012, 03:19 PM
#4
Why take something as simple as a pneumatic wategate (often with an electronic controller) and make it complicated (with additional wiring, servos, heat insulators...)?
I believe some diesel engines don't even have wastegates, instead, they use a drive-by-wire throttle to control MAP, if MAP increases too far the ECU simply closes the throttle plate a bit, this decreases the pressure on the turbine of the turbo, and thus puts less pressure at the front of the throttle plate. Essentially, the "throttle" pedal does not control throttle position, instead it controls manifold pressure.
I believe some diesel engines don't even have wastegates, instead, they use a drive-by-wire throttle to control MAP, if MAP increases too far the ECU simply closes the throttle plate a bit, this decreases the pressure on the turbine of the turbo, and thus puts less pressure at the front of the throttle plate. Essentially, the "throttle" pedal does not control throttle position, instead it controls manifold pressure.
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04-19-2012, 03:26 PM
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Why take something as simple as a pneumatic wategate (often with an electronic controller) and make it complicated (with additional wiring, servos, heat insulators...)?
I believe some diesel engines don't even have wastegates, instead, they use a drive-by-wire throttle to control MAP, if MAP increases too far the ECU simply closes the throttle plate a bit, this decreases the pressure on the turbine of the turbo, and thus puts less pressure at the front of the throttle plate. Essentially, the "throttle" pedal does not control throttle position, instead it controls manifold pressure.
I believe some diesel engines don't even have wastegates, instead, they use a drive-by-wire throttle to control MAP, if MAP increases too far the ECU simply closes the throttle plate a bit, this decreases the pressure on the turbine of the turbo, and thus puts less pressure at the front of the throttle plate. Essentially, the "throttle" pedal does not control throttle position, instead it controls manifold pressure.
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04-19-2012, 07:54 PM
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Electric wastegate actuators:
Hella:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...106444023.html
Garrett VNT controlled by Adaptronic 1280:
The cost and complexity isn't worth it when you can greatly improve the pneumatic wastegate's performance with an additional pressure sensor and $2 of electronics:
https://www.miataturbo.net/ecus-tuning-54/hi-performance-boost-control-pwned-64996/
Hella:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...106444023.html
Garrett VNT controlled by Adaptronic 1280:
The cost and complexity isn't worth it when you can greatly improve the pneumatic wastegate's performance with an additional pressure sensor and $2 of electronics:
https://www.miataturbo.net/ecus-tuning-54/hi-performance-boost-control-pwned-64996/
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04-19-2012, 09:10 PM
#10
b/c an ebc is just electronics controlling a solenoid that moves air pressure in/out in order to actuate a wastegate -
this guy was asking about a setup minus the solenoid - straight electronics to the wastegate
and about the diesels in some of the big trucks -
i know a lot of modern ones do not have wgs b/c they have those variable vein technology/ variable geometry turbos where the blades in the compressor (or turbine, not sure) housing actually change shape in order to create more or less boost...
this guy was asking about a setup minus the solenoid - straight electronics to the wastegate
and about the diesels in some of the big trucks -
i know a lot of modern ones do not have wgs b/c they have those variable vein technology/ variable geometry turbos where the blades in the compressor (or turbine, not sure) housing actually change shape in order to create more or less boost...
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04-20-2012, 11:20 AM
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Why not? This question didn't really fit the theme of my stupid questions thread, which was for questions I had while taking the motor out over the winter.
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04-21-2012, 11:13 AM
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It is a valid question, and the answer is quite simple.
Why no fully electronic wastegate?
Because no need.
(And also, because cost and complexity.)
This seems like a solution to a problem that does not exist. If we assume the mechanical design of the wastegate itself (and whatever gas channels supply it and receive its output) then the physical mechanism by which the valve is actuated is completely immaterial, so long as it can be precisely and accurately controlled.
Preset day closed-loop EBC via pneumatic solenoid provides control over boost pressure which is entirely adequate for a gasoline engine in a passenger car. Since there is no need for a wastegate-actuator which is controlled by purely electronic means, there is no impetus to invest time and money in designing one.
The current trend in turbocharger research instead focuses on refining and perfecting variable-geometry systems, which promises a far greater return in turbo efficiency and responsiveness.
Why no fully electronic wastegate?
Because no need.
(And also, because cost and complexity.)
This seems like a solution to a problem that does not exist. If we assume the mechanical design of the wastegate itself (and whatever gas channels supply it and receive its output) then the physical mechanism by which the valve is actuated is completely immaterial, so long as it can be precisely and accurately controlled.
Preset day closed-loop EBC via pneumatic solenoid provides control over boost pressure which is entirely adequate for a gasoline engine in a passenger car. Since there is no need for a wastegate-actuator which is controlled by purely electronic means, there is no impetus to invest time and money in designing one.
The current trend in turbocharger research instead focuses on refining and perfecting variable-geometry systems, which promises a far greater return in turbo efficiency and responsiveness.
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05-11-2012, 12:18 PM
#17
I seem to remember seeing a directly solenoid operated wastegate prototype made by Turbosmart or one of the other Aussie companies years ago. Seems to me that they had such a minuscule performance improvement that the cost of keeping the solenoid alive while attached to the exhaust manifold it never made it past the development stage.
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