Want or do not want? Subaru BRZ STI
07-22-2012, 01:08 AM
#390
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A chassis that good for 25K is a pretty good deal anymore. Crash regs make light cars darn difficult to do.
I think the fuel injection is really interesting. You can mess with the old school port injectors a lot more easily than the DI stuff at this point, much more aftermarket support. So throw some larger injectors on the port side of things (I bet they only come on under high load anyway, why use them in cruise and idle situations over the DI?) and you are probably going to have a pretty useable tune to start with that does not have much in terms of driveability issues or poor mileage. Probably pass a sniffer easily too.
I think the fuel injection is really interesting. You can mess with the old school port injectors a lot more easily than the DI stuff at this point, much more aftermarket support. So throw some larger injectors on the port side of things (I bet they only come on under high load anyway, why use them in cruise and idle situations over the DI?) and you are probably going to have a pretty useable tune to start with that does not have much in terms of driveability issues or poor mileage. Probably pass a sniffer easily too.
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07-22-2012, 03:28 PM
#392
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I went to an fr-s forum to read up on what people are doing and it made me remember that everytime a car comes out how completely ignorant most of the early adopters are.
People buying brand new 25K cars and putting a chrome 90* pipe and shitty cone filter on it then talking about how awesome there new intake is, and everyone else just falls in line saying awesome mod.
Saw the same thing when my buddy bought his tC and when I was looking into a genesis.
People buying brand new 25K cars and putting a chrome 90* pipe and shitty cone filter on it then talking about how awesome there new intake is, and everyone else just falls in line saying awesome mod.
Saw the same thing when my buddy bought his tC and when I was looking into a genesis.
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07-22-2012, 05:21 PM
#393
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Can any affordable aftermarket ECUs control DI yet? I think what he was trying to say was leave the DI still alone for idle/part throttle and then use a parallel ECU to add additional fuel in the ports when boost hits.
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07-22-2012, 05:28 PM
#394
the MS3 have the accessport
the BRZ/FRS so far have ecutec
its only a matter of months (year tops) before many others hop onto the bandwagon.
you guys are thinking like miata owners: "standalone needed for anything over 200whp"
These new cars coming out these days have SERIOUSLY awesome ECU's. Stuff that even an MS3x can't touch (some of them). Its not a matter of fabricating some old school 2 set of injectors bandaid/parallel crap, its a matter of unlocking the stock ecu with these cars, and getting it to do what you want.
once you do that, you win at life.
look at all the stock ecu subarus in the 800+whp, look at all the stock ecu evo's in the 1000+whp, etc etc etc. it took 1-2 years for people to unlock them and the potential/capabilities are just insane. The 08+ subarus you can get the stock ecu to contol timing-by-gear, ramp up boost in the lower gears, map switching on the fly, control the transmission/diffs, etc..
All I'm saying is there's no longer a need for old 90s technology with these cars anymore. They are lightyears ahead and are seriously awesome
the BRZ/FRS so far have ecutec
its only a matter of months (year tops) before many others hop onto the bandwagon.
you guys are thinking like miata owners: "standalone needed for anything over 200whp"
These new cars coming out these days have SERIOUSLY awesome ECU's. Stuff that even an MS3x can't touch (some of them). Its not a matter of fabricating some old school 2 set of injectors bandaid/parallel crap, its a matter of unlocking the stock ecu with these cars, and getting it to do what you want.
once you do that, you win at life.
look at all the stock ecu subarus in the 800+whp, look at all the stock ecu evo's in the 1000+whp, etc etc etc. it took 1-2 years for people to unlock them and the potential/capabilities are just insane. The 08+ subarus you can get the stock ecu to contol timing-by-gear, ramp up boost in the lower gears, map switching on the fly, control the transmission/diffs, etc..
All I'm saying is there's no longer a need for old 90s technology with these cars anymore. They are lightyears ahead and are seriously awesome
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07-22-2012, 06:32 PM
#396
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Just to make sure we are on the same page, the BRZ has both port injectors and DI stock. I have no earthly idea why they did that save maybe to clean the intake valves a bit. But since they do I was proposing a relatively simple concept in fuel delivery requirements for a setup that's designed to be NA and may run out of headroom with a serious turbo setup.
But frankly I had no idea the stock ECUs were at all receptive to tuning on the level that 18psi is talking about. That's pretty awesome. I remember when I thought I was the ---- because I ran DSMLink.
My only real question then is what you do for injectors when you simply run out of mechanical capacity. I realize we are not there yet at all with BRZs, but its a question that will get more an more relevant over time.
The big diesel guys can get all the aftermarket injectors they want, but they are also in a much more well developed market compared to DI gas cars right now. Does anyone make aftermarket DI stuff for gas yet? Will someone get to that before lots of people outrun the fuel systems on their BRZs? No idea. But throwing some FICs or something in the port side could be a stop-gap as long as it does not allow for pre-ignition in a 12.5:1 chamber with lots of boost. Which it might.
But frankly I had no idea the stock ECUs were at all receptive to tuning on the level that 18psi is talking about. That's pretty awesome. I remember when I thought I was the ---- because I ran DSMLink.
My only real question then is what you do for injectors when you simply run out of mechanical capacity. I realize we are not there yet at all with BRZs, but its a question that will get more an more relevant over time.
The big diesel guys can get all the aftermarket injectors they want, but they are also in a much more well developed market compared to DI gas cars right now. Does anyone make aftermarket DI stuff for gas yet? Will someone get to that before lots of people outrun the fuel systems on their BRZs? No idea. But throwing some FICs or something in the port side could be a stop-gap as long as it does not allow for pre-ignition in a 12.5:1 chamber with lots of boost. Which it might.
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07-22-2012, 07:01 PM
#398
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Yeah, DI is great that way, but I am convinced at this point that one of the real benefits is that you can avoid detonation and especially pre-ignition by being able to inject after intake valve close and right at about 14 degrees BTDC, just before the spark plug lights. So basically they are avoiding knock and pre-ignition by not having anything to burn until the last possible second. Which is awesome. How do you have knock without any fuel 
So yeah it cools, but it also avoids ugliness by simply not allowing the possibility of it until the proper time.
But with some port injectors doing their thing, you do have fuel, and even with modern sequential injection its going to be there long before 14 degrees BTDC. What really gets me wondering is: wouldn't a small amount of fuel from those port injectors actually create optimal conditions for pre-ignition (super lean AFR until the DI kicks) given enough heat?
Apparently not. But I don't really get why not.
So yeah it cools, but it also avoids ugliness by simply not allowing the possibility of it until the proper time.But with some port injectors doing their thing, you do have fuel, and even with modern sequential injection its going to be there long before 14 degrees BTDC. What really gets me wondering is: wouldn't a small amount of fuel from those port injectors actually create optimal conditions for pre-ignition (super lean AFR until the DI kicks) given enough heat?
Apparently not. But I don't really get why not.
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07-22-2012, 07:05 PM
#399
Just to make sure we are on the same page, the BRZ has both port injectors and DI stock. I have no earthly idea why they did that save maybe to clean the intake valves a bit. But since they do I was proposing a relatively simple concept in fuel delivery requirements for a setup that's designed to be NA and may run out of headroom with a serious turbo setup.
But frankly I had no idea the stock ECUs were at all receptive to tuning on the level that 18psi is talking about. That's pretty awesome. I remember when I thought I was the ---- because I ran DSMLink.
My only real question then is what you do for injectors when you simply run out of mechanical capacity. I realize we are not there yet at all with BRZs, but its a question that will get more an more relevant over time.
The big diesel guys can get all the aftermarket injectors they want, but they are also in a much more well developed market compared to DI gas cars right now. Does anyone make aftermarket DI stuff for gas yet? Will someone get to that before lots of people outrun the fuel systems on their BRZs? No idea. But throwing some FICs or something in the port side could be a stop-gap as long as it does not allow for pre-ignition in a 12.5:1 chamber with lots of boost. Which it might.
But frankly I had no idea the stock ECUs were at all receptive to tuning on the level that 18psi is talking about. That's pretty awesome. I remember when I thought I was the ---- because I ran DSMLink.
My only real question then is what you do for injectors when you simply run out of mechanical capacity. I realize we are not there yet at all with BRZs, but its a question that will get more an more relevant over time.
The big diesel guys can get all the aftermarket injectors they want, but they are also in a much more well developed market compared to DI gas cars right now. Does anyone make aftermarket DI stuff for gas yet? Will someone get to that before lots of people outrun the fuel systems on their BRZs? No idea. But throwing some FICs or something in the port side could be a stop-gap as long as it does not allow for pre-ignition in a 12.5:1 chamber with lots of boost. Which it might.
Everyone pretty much stays under the limit hoping a not so very expensive solution is found soon.
And I had no idea it has both stock, so your idea is actually nowhere near as bad as I originally thought.
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