Want or do not want? Subaru BRZ STI
05-03-2013, 03:34 PM
#722
Boost Czar
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we'll probably end up with something bigger, she's also tired of cars trying to occupy the same space she's in cause they dont see it, and she hates long doors getting in and out of tight parking spots.
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05-03-2013, 06:43 PM
#725
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Hi guys. I stumbled upon the conversation and since the discussion seems to be about my car and the NASA classing I figured I'd show up and give my thoughts:
What makes you say that? I feel very strongly that this car is not a C car. Not even close. D is where it belongs, and if it gets moved up it will become obsolete and irrelevant for NASA TT competition.
Correct, the S2000 is a TTC base car. FR-S is a base TTD car. Neither have any stars attached to their base classes. One star (*) is base plus 7 points, two stars (**) is base plus 14 points.
Per the rules, you may "spend" 19 points in modifications and stay within your class. When you spend your 20th point, you get bumped up to the next class.
I disagree with you on both points here. Yes, it's daily driven... but when I run my car in TT, it is nearly to the limit of TTD in terms of points. I have a little room to make a few more HP without breaking the 14.25:1 hp/weight limit for the class, but that's it.
I also have a ton of laps around Sebring and my livelihood centers on teaching folks how to drive quickly around here. Another 3 seconds in D trim? Doubt it. If I were to do the few other mods I could in order to get another few HP out of it, we might be talking another 1/2-3/4 second. Cooler weather, slightly fresher tires, might help too.
I'm certainly open to suggestions though!
^^^ and BINGO was his name-o... ^^^
The D record at Roebling was also beaten by another competitor that weekend. I just happened to beat it more.
I whole-heartedly believe that D is the proper class. It can certainly be beaten, in fact I tried to put it all on the line at Nationals last year and go for the TTD win, at a handling track (Mid-O) in exactly the same trim as it runs now. Guess what? I didn't win. I placed 2nd by 3/10ths to a Turbo Mazdaspeed Protege driven by reigning TTD champ Bill Brees.
I don't know anything about the Miata other than it's a superchaged car that belongs to Josh Fiengold, driven by Vic Leo, who is fast. I also know that the record was largely uncontested... the TTD entrant pool hasn't been all that deep here in Florida. In fact, TT as a whole has struggled for entries for awhile. I really, sincerely hope that changes as it's a really fun group with some great tracks.
What I do know is that my car is "mildly prepped" to run on Hoosiers, and on a Visconti E85 tune - of which there are only two stations that I know of in Central Florida. One that closes at 7PM and shuts off the pumps...
So no, I don't trailer my car to the track - which is one of the beauties of it, but it does take some extra planning to get enough E85 and the tires/wheels/tools to fit in the car.
I'm actually spending some time on the West Coast this summer... I hope to bring the FR-S with me, though I'm not sure if that's going to be possible at this point. Would love to compare what I'm doing and what I've got to the West Coast guys. I'm sure I'd learn a lot, not knowing any of the tracks out there!
Again, "mostly street prepped/mildly prepped" is open to interpretation I suppose, but I'm not exactly schmucky the clown out there, breaking records in a car that hasn't been carefully modified to be competitive in the class.
When I bought the car, Time Trial was already a big part of the plans for it. I think that you're right - the car shouldn't be given a re-class based on the recent success I've been having with it in the Southeast/Florida.
Per the rules, you may "spend" 19 points in modifications and stay within your class. When you spend your 20th point, you get bumped up to the next class.
I also have a ton of laps around Sebring and my livelihood centers on teaching folks how to drive quickly around here. Another 3 seconds in D trim? Doubt it. If I were to do the few other mods I could in order to get another few HP out of it, we might be talking another 1/2-3/4 second. Cooler weather, slightly fresher tires, might help too.
I'm certainly open to suggestions though!
Any data, build threads, evidence to back that up, or is that just your gut feeling?
A lot of the PT/TT track records around the country are basically place holders, held by some hack in an under-prep'd car. Heck, I know of a couple PTB track records here in the Midwest that were broken by a under prep'd car being piloted by a talentless a$$hat. Take the TTD record at TWS for example, multiple cars ran multiple seconds under the old record at the April event.
I'm not saying the FR-S/BR-Z is classed correctly by NASA, not in the least. What I'm trying to say is just because some guy is beating random track records doesn't 100% prove it is. You have to get the car on the track at the same time with other well driven, well prepped cars in the same class.
A lot of the PT/TT track records around the country are basically place holders, held by some hack in an under-prep'd car. Heck, I know of a couple PTB track records here in the Midwest that were broken by a under prep'd car being piloted by a talentless a$$hat. Take the TTD record at TWS for example, multiple cars ran multiple seconds under the old record at the April event.
I'm not saying the FR-S/BR-Z is classed correctly by NASA, not in the least. What I'm trying to say is just because some guy is beating random track records doesn't 100% prove it is. You have to get the car on the track at the same time with other well driven, well prepped cars in the same class.
The D record at Roebling was also beaten by another competitor that weekend. I just happened to beat it more.
I whole-heartedly believe that D is the proper class. It can certainly be beaten, in fact I tried to put it all on the line at Nationals last year and go for the TTD win, at a handling track (Mid-O) in exactly the same trim as it runs now. Guess what? I didn't win. I placed 2nd by 3/10ths to a Turbo Mazdaspeed Protege driven by reigning TTD champ Bill Brees.
I think that's relevant, but Emilio is probably basing some of that on his experience on the West Coast, including his testing of an FR-S.
As for the Sebring lap record, it was set by Victor Leo in an turbo Miata. I don't know anything about his setup or him as a driver (other than he holds multiple TTD track records in FL).
I would still say that Jon showing up in his pretty mildly prepped daily driver (driven to and from the events) breaking lap records is pretty significant.
As for the Sebring lap record, it was set by Victor Leo in an turbo Miata. I don't know anything about his setup or him as a driver (other than he holds multiple TTD track records in FL).
I would still say that Jon showing up in his pretty mildly prepped daily driver (driven to and from the events) breaking lap records is pretty significant.
What I do know is that my car is "mildly prepped" to run on Hoosiers, and on a Visconti E85 tune - of which there are only two stations that I know of in Central Florida. One that closes at 7PM and shuts off the pumps...
So no, I don't trailer my car to the track - which is one of the beauties of it, but it does take some extra planning to get enough E85 and the tires/wheels/tools to fit in the car.
I'm actually spending some time on the West Coast this summer... I hope to bring the FR-S with me, though I'm not sure if that's going to be possible at this point. Would love to compare what I'm doing and what I've got to the West Coast guys. I'm sure I'd learn a lot, not knowing any of the tracks out there!
I know Emilio has tested both the S2000 and the FR-S. I also know he's biased because his business is racing miatas. Like how I'm biased because I race Hondas, one of them an SCCA T3 spec S2000.
I'm not saying it's insignificant that a mostly street prepped car is breaking TTD records, but I wouldn't hold my breath on NASA changing the FRS base class based alone on those results.
I'm not saying it's insignificant that a mostly street prepped car is breaking TTD records, but I wouldn't hold my breath on NASA changing the FRS base class based alone on those results.
When I bought the car, Time Trial was already a big part of the plans for it. I think that you're right - the car shouldn't be given a re-class based on the recent success I've been having with it in the Southeast/Florida.
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05-03-2013, 10:33 PM
#726
Jon,
Direct personal experience with Miatas, S2000's and 86 at the same track in various states of tune. Some folks might say I'm an OK driver and have a rough idea how to set up a national level PT car. From the video frame alone I can see a full second you leave in car prep. No offense but a daily driven full interior, A/C, ungutted car would get smoked by a seam welded gutted car with ballast.
I am not basing my classing opinion solely on your video if that is your impression. I arrived at this conclusion about 8 months ago when after driving a press car and two track prepped cars. We did the bulk of the track testing and development for the AST application for the 86.
There is more info regarding the 86 and how it would be setup by us for D or C but I prefer to save that for the car we're building. It will be faster than Crusher, which is the fastest C car in the country (and a few feet away from me).
I might be the only one on this thread that has been around the three cars in question enough to understand the potential of each. Keep in mind, at our shop at least, the potential we unlock in platforms often exceeds what most people think is possible. So yeah, we're accustomed to skepticism.
See you at Miller if you are going.
Direct personal experience with Miatas, S2000's and 86 at the same track in various states of tune. Some folks might say I'm an OK driver and have a rough idea how to set up a national level PT car. From the video frame alone I can see a full second you leave in car prep. No offense but a daily driven full interior, A/C, ungutted car would get smoked by a seam welded gutted car with ballast.
I am not basing my classing opinion solely on your video if that is your impression. I arrived at this conclusion about 8 months ago when after driving a press car and two track prepped cars. We did the bulk of the track testing and development for the AST application for the 86.
There is more info regarding the 86 and how it would be setup by us for D or C but I prefer to save that for the car we're building. It will be faster than Crusher, which is the fastest C car in the country (and a few feet away from me).
I might be the only one on this thread that has been around the three cars in question enough to understand the potential of each. Keep in mind, at our shop at least, the potential we unlock in platforms often exceeds what most people think is possible. So yeah, we're accustomed to skepticism.
See you at Miller if you are going.
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05-03-2013, 11:18 PM
#728
But yeah, skeptic away dude. I stand by my opinion that mod for mod, the 86 is just as fast as an S2000.
Don't you have a big boy grand am race to do somewhere?
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05-03-2013, 11:39 PM
#729
Yup, Mid-Ohio June 15th, I'll be the closer in car #92.
But before then, two SCCA Majors races in a T3 S2000, not racing against 86's because they are classed below the S2000.
Silly, right?
What's weird is the 86 is classed in ST and no one is falling all over themselves to build a car and run it. Yet, Grand AM wouldn't allow the S2000 in ST because it was too fast...
Emilio, you know I love you
But before then, two SCCA Majors races in a T3 S2000, not racing against 86's because they are classed below the S2000.
Silly, right?
What's weird is the 86 is classed in ST and no one is falling all over themselves to build a car and run it. Yet, Grand AM wouldn't allow the S2000 in ST because it was too fast...
Emilio, you know I love you
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06-04-2013, 10:38 AM
#738
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What is up with Subaru and their shitty factory ECU tunes? I remember bone stock STis detonating and now it seems like there is a transient ignition table in the FR-S/BRZ ECU that stops at ~5200 RPM so that high-RPM shift patterns cause detonation which then blows out the direct injector seals.
Fortunately, this is something that can be easily addressed with an ECU tune or factory ROM flash (currently only available in South Africa) but it's something to be aware of with used cars that have been driven hard.
Fortunately, this is something that can be easily addressed with an ECU tune or factory ROM flash (currently only available in South Africa) but it's something to be aware of with used cars that have been driven hard.
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06-05-2013, 11:32 AM
#739
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This is an issue even with a normal WRX. For the AWD twins its a delay before open loop which basically means youre at 14.7 in boost. I used to hear audible detonation before I reflashed.
Stupid.
Stupid.
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06-05-2013, 11:40 AM
#740
No, its different. And the wrx/sti have an issue like this as well but most people either tune around it or dont push the spark map all the way to the knock limit. The issue is that subaru doesnt do transient knock retard like everyone else it would seem. I know how the GM system works, in the cases causing knock on the FRZ/BRS the GM ecu's anticipate that the engine would knock under those conditions and pull timing.
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