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Old 12-29-2013, 05:49 PM   #4041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnout View Post
Are you saying that poly lowers for AR's don't require the paperwork that metal ones do? If that is the case, how does BATFE and all the other goose steppers determine what constitutes a firearm, or what type, since that is the only part that usually needs to be registered (unless of course, you're going for a SBR and/or suppressor)?
Has nothing to do with the polymer, and everything to do with the 80%. An 80% finished AR lower can be shipped directly to the consumer, no FFL required, and the consumer can legally finish the lower himself.
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Old 12-30-2013, 03:28 PM   #4042
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New bits on the ar15
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Old 12-30-2013, 03:37 PM   #4043
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Newcastle mini-keg-magazine adapter? What kind of velocities are you getting?
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Old 12-30-2013, 03:40 PM   #4044
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That's my high capacity magazine, 5l of it.
Actually, I dremmeled out the top and Now use it for my change.
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:33 PM   #4045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnout View Post
Are you saying that poly lowers for AR's don't require the paperwork that metal ones do? If that is the case, how does BATFE and all the other goose steppers determine what constitutes a firearm, or what type, since that is the only part that usually needs to be registered (unless of course, you're going for a SBR and/or suppressor)?
We need to clarify some things...

There is no such thing as "registering" firearms as it pertains to the current discussion. A few states have implemented a defacto registration scheme (CA/NY/NJ), but it hasn't happened at the federal level. Some states also require that CHL/CCL/CWP/etc holders register and/or qualify with their individual carry weapons.

NFA Title2 firearms that must be bought from a Class3 dealer ARE registered in the classic sense of having a complete gov't database regarding your name, address, social, and the make/mode/serial of each weapon in that class that you own... machine guns, suppressors, SBR's, and other special weapons... read all about it here:
National Firearms Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For regular-type firearms, when you purchase a firearm from a dealer, you fill out a 4473 "background check form" and the dealer runs it through the NICS system. A few states have implemented their own background check system to run potential buyers through local databases that NICS does not pull from.
FBI — NICS Overview

The only thing that goes on the form 4473 is about you... nothing about the gun. The dealer will report over the phone or online (whichever way they access the system) the type of gun being purchased (rifle/pistol/shotgun), but not the serial numbers or make/model... a common misconception.

And don't misinterpret what NICS actually does... it's not a permission slip from the FBI telling the FFL he must transfer the weapon... it's simply the last chance the gov't has to tell the FFL that the buyer is in a prohibited class.

An FFL is required to keep a very accurate record on-site for the duration he has a license of every transfer completed. This information contains your name/address/make/model/serial of the gun he transferred to you, but that information is KEPT AT THE DEALER IN PAPER FORM. FFL's are required to release that info to law enforcement when investigating a crime.

NOW TO ANSWER THE QUESTION ABOUT POLYMER/METAL and 80% RECEIVERS:

It's not illegal for a person to manufacture their own firearms. Ie... anybody who isn't otherwise prohibited from purchasing/posessing guns can make their own. They don't a license to do this, nor do the firearms need to be serialized or registered or even a 4473 done for. The only caveat is that you can't make guns in your garage for the purpose of selling (because then you'd be a manufacturer and need a license)... but if you make one, shoot it for a year or so, and decide you want to make another one, you can certainly sell the first, or even a few... you just need to be careful you're within the law. And since the only part of any firearm that is considered "the firearm" is the receiver, we're only talking about one piece of metal/plastic.

LOTS of people do in fact make their own. Since the average person can't actually buy land, mine for ore, operate a foundry, create steel (or manufacture a polymer based product after drilling for their own oil), and actually start the job of "creating a firearm from scratch", the ATF allows a person to buy partially finished "thing" that could eventually be a receiver functional receiver that still has at least 20% of the work left to be done on it.

Ie, you can buy a piece of metal/plastic that has 79.9% of the machining done to it, and finish the rest yourself... clicky:
AR15 kits and M-16 Parts From Top quality manufacturers of rifle barrels and parts.
An AR-15 From Scratch With Billet Rifle Systems 80% Lower Receiver – Part I - The Firearm Blog

The advantage to doing this with a polymer receiver is that you can do it with a Harbor-Freight drill press and a Dremel rather than needing a small machine shop.

A completed polymer lower (whether stripped or as an actual built firearm) bought from a dealer requires the same 4473 check that a metal one does... just like there's no difference in the definition of "firearm" whether you're buying a Glock (polymer receiver) or 1911 (metal receiver)... they're both pistols.

You can also make your own pistols from 80% frames... 1911's are very popular for this.

If you're really interested in building guns at home... this is the place:
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi

New Frontier Armory is currently one of the more popular manufacturer of complete polymer lowers:
http://newfrontierarmory.com/catalog...ducts_id=34089

More on building your own:
You may have heard of a "build party" where person will rent time on a CNC machine, load up a program, invite 20 of his buddies over, and all they have to do it mount their 80% receiver in the jig and press "start"... now sadly illegal according to the ATF. They didn't think pressing a button counted as the individual person actually personally completing the last 20% on their own... so be careful.

Unless somebody really wants to, I won't talk about building your own AK from 80% receiver flats... but it's far more involved than finishing an AR15 receiver.

Last edited by samnavy; 12-30-2013 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:57 PM   #4046
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Thanks Sam. As always, props for solid info.

Something else to add for the guys in CA and similar States: When it comes to things like OLL (off list lower) bullet button builds and things like DIY 80% jobs, you will probably (and should) know more about these things than the flatfoot who finds an AR in then trunk of your car with no serial number on it during a traffic stop. The info distributed to the Law Enforcement community about the OLL & BB thing has gotten MUCH better in the last 5 years, but be prepared to do a lot of very calm and rational explaining.

Also agree with Sam about NRA and CALGUNS. CGF is one of the few non-profit organizations that can get cash out of me, and for good reason.

On a gun related note: does anyone know where I can find full power 30 Carbine ammo? I've got some of that Privi Partizan stuff, but its supposed to be loaded at like 60-70% of milspec
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Old 12-31-2013, 12:02 AM   #4047
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Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
On a gun related note: does anyone know where I can find full power 30 Carbine ammo? I've got some of that Privi Partizan stuff, but its supposed to be loaded at like 60-70% of milspec
Dude, I'll rub it in... reloading is so simple. Primers are back in stock everywhere and powder is getting more available by the week.

Do some homework on equipment, or just buy the Lee Classic Turret Press kit... straight-walled brass will get you dozens of reloads, so you don't need that many... maybe 1000 pieces total if you like to have a lot on hand.

110gr bulk bullets are $100/1000.
http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/308-3...ne-110-RNP.htm
Tula small-rifle primers are .02cents each. BUY LOCAL
14gr charges will run like .04-.05cents each depending on powder. BUY LOCAL
New Remington brass is like .25ea (it's out there, but you'll have to call places... or buy once-fired LC for even cheaper)

Even if you only get 25 reloads per piece of brass, that's just .17/.18cents... gunbot shows PRVI selling for .58c each before shipping. 1000 reloaded rounds saves you $400, which pays for a Lee Classic Turret Press and every single other piece of equipment you need.

I've searched... PRVI rates their .30carbine at 2001fps... that's SAMI for 110gr:
Product Information
Shop more Prvi Partizan products Since 1928, Prvi Partizan has been producing custom ammunition in Serbia for competition, indoor ranges and hunting. Full metal jacket loads are non-expanding rounds that were designed for target shooting because of their good penetration ability. This ammunition is new product, non-corrosive, in boxer primed, reloadable brass cases.

Technical Information
Caliber: 30 Carbine
Bullet Weight: 110 Grains
Bullet Style: Full Metal Jacket
Case Type: Brass
Ballistics Information:
Muzzle Velocity: 2001 fps
Muzzle Energy: 973 ft. lbs.

YOU NEED TO BUY/BORROW A CHRONOGRAPH AND SEE WHAT KIND OF VELOCITY YOU'RE GETTING:
Amazon.com: Shooting Chrony 7000099 F1 Master Chronograph, Green: Sports & Outdoors Amazon.com: Shooting Chrony 7000099 F1 Master Chronograph, Green: Sports & Outdoors
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:12 AM   #4048
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It's like they were reading my mind... with free shipping... find an FFL who will do these for $10ea, or ask him to order them for you.
PSA Picto Lower Blem 10-pack

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Old 12-31-2013, 07:21 PM   #4049
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Great info, samnavy and thanks for the explanation about the paperwork. Thinking back to what I had to fill out when I bought my lower, I can see now that it doesn't fit the definition of "registration. It's like you said, in the form of a questionnaire about your intentions for what you're buying. (Is this being purchased on behalf of someone else, etc). As a concealed carry permit holder, in NC, it's a cash-and-carry proposition for as many pistols or rifles as I have the money for, per purchase event, so there is no waiting between purchase application and taking the gun with me. Possession of a valid concealed carry permit is defacto proof that a background check has been performed.

The rest of your comments about purchase and possession of suppressors and SBR also cleared up much that I was sort of foggy on. I have a cousin who is a former NC ALE officer, and he can recite the stuff chapter and verse, but all that legalese gets confusing unless you refresh yourself frequently. He's assisted me in what I can/can't do with regard to my AR build. I hope to get more and more adept with the regs concerning the NFA stuff.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:36 PM   #4050
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Originally Posted by Burnout View Post
Great info, samnavy and thanks for the explanation about the paperwork.... Possession of a valid concealed carry permit is defacto proof that a background check has been performed.
For those that don't know, NC has an unusual method for purchasing guns... some say good, others bad.

In NC, in order to buy a pistol, you must first apply for a PPP (Pistol Purchase Permit) from your local Sheriff. State law requires the applicant to appear in person with government ID, pay a $5 fee, undergo a background check similar in scope and scrutiny to NICS, and have a reason for owning a pistol (hunting, target shooting, self defense, or collecting). This policy (like many state laws that make gun-buying tough) is a Jim Crow holdover designed to keep guns out of "those" hands. As far as I know, almost all Sheriffs make this hassle-free to the best of their ability... almost all.

This permit qualifies you to buy ONE pistol, then you must go back to the Sheriff for another permit... permits are good for FIVE YEARS. The "good" part about the permit is that the NICS check is done by the Sheriff and does not need to be done by the FFL.

Permits are not required for long-guns... but the FFL will perform a NICS check.

Those who have a valid CHP do not have to apply for a PPP, do not need a NICS check, and can buy as many guns of any type that they want.

Burnout... you'll be happy to note (if you hadn't heard) of NC Bill 397 that was signed into law this summer. Original drafts that passes the House and Senate eliminated the PPP system altogether, but when it got to the Governor, he was confronted by a few powerful Sheriffs and amended the bill to retain the PPP system, albeit a "better" one that keeps the Sheriffs honest... highlights:

Section 17.2(a). Clarifies PPP issue law. If a Sheriff denies your PPP, he has to tell you in writing why, citing the applicable statute. Each quarter (every 3 months) the Sheriff has to make a list of all PPPs that he’s denied, remove identifiable information, and offer it to anyone who asks. That will force Sheriffs to admit to denying permits, along with the reasons for the denials. If we see a pattern of abuse, we can go after that Sheriff. It requires the Sheriff to tell NICS if he finds a reason why you should be denied, but aren’t by NICS. Sheriffs can no longer limit the number of PPPs any one person can get per year, nor can they demand extra fees. It sets up a process for revoking PPPs

Section 17.3. Requires Sheriffs to look through old PPPs and see if any need to be revoked and revoke them.

Section 17.4. Makes PPPs private records not subject to freedom of information requests.


NFA stuff is easy if you've got a trust or LLC (otherwise it's the CLEO route, which is complete and utter ancient bullshit)... when you buy a NFA item, the dealer will take your money for the item and $200 for your stamp, in addition to the 4473, you will fill out a Form4 (ATF 5320.4). He will send the Form4 off to the ATF, and in 8-12 months, call you back saying your stamp came in, then you can go into the store and pick up your:

Machine guns;
The frames or receivers of machine guns;
Any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting weapons into machine guns;
Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for converting a weapon into a machine gun;
Any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person;
Silencers and any part designed and intended for fabricating a silencer;
Short-barreled rifles;
Short-barreled shotguns;
Destructive devices; and,
“Any other weapon.” (only a $5 stamp, not $200)


For an AR15, the only real things you can do are convert to an SBR and/or add a suppressor.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:42 PM   #4051
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Anyone have any experience with frog lube? I purchased some to try and definitely like how smooth my various (ar15, m&p9, xd9-sc) actions feel. Very smooth. Way easier to clean up after lubing compared to traditional clp. I used the paste and did not warm parts so I can see if it changes things later on.
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:38 PM   #4052
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Congrats sorta to New York... unfortunately you still have the SAFE ACT to deal with, but today a part of it was struck down.
http://download.gannett.edgesuite.ne...T-Decision.pdf

A New York district court has ruled on a few things... unfortunately, if you live in NY, you still have the 3 big pieces of **** to deal with:
Total ban on assault weapons
Max of 10rd mags (no grandfathering)
Ammo sales need a background check (so no internet buying)

But one spark of good news, THE 7 ROUND LOADING LIMIT WAS STRUCK DOWN... New Yorkers can now load a full 10rds into their super awesome 10rd mags!!! Yippee!!!

The verbiage:
But as an initial matter, New York fails to explain its decision to set the maximum at seven rounds, which appears to be a largely arbitrary number. And even if a person using a weapon in self-defense needs only a few rounds, and even if that is a rational reason for adopting the law, under intermediate scrutiny there must a “substantial relation” between the means and the end. The State’s justification for the law need not be perfect, but it must be “exceedingly persuasive.

This peripheral rationale, which is possibly meant to protect bystanders when a firearm is being discharged lawfully, or victims of impromptu acts of violence, is largely unsupported by evidence before this Court. It thus fails the more demanding test and must stuck down.
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:55 PM   #4053
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Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
In NC, in order to buy a pistol, you must first apply for a PPP (Pistol Purchase Permit) from your local Sheriff. State law requires the applicant to appear in person with government ID, pay a $5 fee, undergo a background check similar in scope and scrutiny to NICS, and have a reason for owning a pistol (hunting, target shooting, self defense, or collecting). This policy (like many state laws that make gun-buying tough) is a Jim Crow holdover designed to keep guns out of "those" hands. As far as I know, almost all Sheriffs make this hassle-free to the best of their ability... almost all.

This permit qualifies you to buy ONE pistol, then you must go back to the Sheriff for another permit... permits are good for FIVE YEARS. The "good" part about the permit is that the NICS check is done by the Sheriff and does not need to be done by the FFL.
Yep, you literally have to go to your counties Sherriff's department and hand in the paperwork. I was a resident of NC until 2010 and as of that time, you could purchase 5 pistol permits at one time for $25.
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Old 01-01-2014, 02:29 AM   #4054
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The CCP (concealed carry pistol) permit business is booming in NC, anybody who can instruct the courses has business aplenty. I'm enrolled to get the legal part in April (has to be through NCDOJ) and I'll be set to do the whole thing (I have all the NRA chits to teach rifle and pistol). Right now I have to find someone (not difficult) to teach the legal part (Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground, etc). PPP will be obsolete the way everybody and their brother is going for CCP. With that, there's no wait, and the background check is already done.

I'm fortunate to have a county Sheriff who's more than happy to sign the paperwork for SBR and suppressors. From what I hear, the formation of trusts for SBR and suppressors is on its way to legal extinction.
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Old 01-01-2014, 12:21 PM   #4055
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The CCP (concealed carry pistol) permit business is booming in NC, anybody who can instruct the courses has business aplenty.
Not surprised... Bill 397 was huge for the state, and a lot of people who thought getting a CHP was useless because of all the restrictions and never got one, are now applying. Plus, gun ownership/purchasing is on the rise across all demographics, and with a system as retarded as the PPP, why wouldn't you get a CHP, even if you have no intention of carrying? Just think, with an NC CHP, you can walk into any gun-store with cash, and purchase firearms like you would bread. It would be even more awesome if the CHP issue authority wasn't the local Sheriff (the same place you have to apply for you PPP), but at least NC is painless shall issue state.

I had posted in the "RPG thread" (maybe in this one too a few pages back) about 397 and what it did. Highlights are here:
HB937 Summary
Most importantly for the average law-abiding gun owner, it cleans up the PPP process for the better (eliminating it would have been preferred), it allows concealed restaurant/bar carry, and it legalizes hunting with suppressors. It also allows concealed carry in a few previously prohibited places.

Quote:
From what I hear, the formation of trusts for SBR and suppressors is on its way to legal extinction.
That is currently the biggest side-plot we're facing, and is being directly driven from within the ATF via the White House as another way to restrict legal gun ownership under Obama's push for mandatory background checks on everyone... it's his gun-control baby. This decision by the ATF doesn't have to go through Congress, they can just do it. The last major news on this was in August. Now that a few more states allow hunting with suppressors (including TX), expect the money to be there for lawsuits like crazy if they mandate CLEO signoffs for everybody.

For those that don't know, if an individual person wants to buy a Class3 weapon, they have to visit their local Sheriff and ask permission... fingerprints, interviews, some require "good cause" bullshit... many pro-gun Sheriffs balk at Class3 stuff and simply will not play along for a ton of reasons discussed in the link below.

The way to get around this is to incorporate or establish an NFA Firearms Trust... that way the entity owns the NFA item and you are the administrator of the trust... multiple people can be placed on the same trust, but only the primary executor needs a regular background check, and there is no Sheriff involvement.

This is the brief that the NRA-ILA put together saying how absurd it was... with highlights... a very good read for expanding your greater firearms industry/legal knowledge:
http://nraila.org/media/11953938/com...atf_41p_1_.pdf

Last edited by samnavy; 01-01-2014 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:28 PM   #4056
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That is currently the biggest side-plot we're facing,[eliminating trust registration/ownership of restricted weapons] and is being directly driven from within the ATF via the White House as another way to restrict legal gun ownership under Obama's push for mandatory background checks on everyone... it's his gun-control baby. This decision by the ATF doesn't have to go through Congress, they can just do it. The last major news on this was in August. Now that a few more states allow hunting with suppressors (including TX), expect the money to be there for lawsuits like crazy if they mandate CLEO signoffs for everybody.
This (bold quote) is unconstitutional in my mind, as it violates the people's right to have a voice in the legislation of laws, since it gives a department of government carte blanche to enact it own regulations at its own whim.

Quote:
For those that don't know, if an individual person wants to buy a Class3 weapon, they have to visit their local Sheriff and ask permission... fingerprints, interviews, some require "good cause" bullshit... many pro-gun Sheriffs balk at Class3 stuff and simply will not play along for a ton of reasons discussed in the link below.

The way to get around this is to incorporate or establish an NFA Firearms Trust... that way the entity owns the NFA item and you are the administrator of the trust... multiple people can be placed on the same trust, but only the primary executor needs a regular background check, and there is no Sheriff involvement.

This is the brief that the NRA-ILA put together saying how absurd it was... with highlights... a very good read for expanding your greater firearms industry/legal knowledge:
http://nraila.org/media/11953938/com...atf_41p_1_.pdf
The Trust has pros and cons within its own framework, and anyone setting one up needs to know them before they establish it. As an example, if the trustee dies, and does not name anyone else in the trust to succeed him/her, anyone in possession of the trust-owned weapon has what amounts to an illegal weapon and is subject to prosecution. This is even if the weapon is directed to someone in the terms of a last will and testament. The successor HAS to be named in the trust, otherwise the weapon has to be destroyed or turned into BATFE, which amounts to the same thing. And, BTW, a trust-owned weapon MUST HAVE the name of the trust engraved into the lower receiver.

A person transporting a trust-owned weapon should be sure to keep a copy of the Form 3 with them at all times they are in possession of the gun, just as they should if the form was signed off by their local sheriff. Where this gets interesting is, if the person happens to be stopped by a local LEO, and they see the form, it can be interpreted by them as an incomplete (and therefore void) form, since a Trust-owned weapon will not have the local sheriff's signature on its form. Any BATFE officer will be able to determine the authenticity of the form simply by running the numbers through their database. My cousin, who owns several restricted guns, had this happen to him at a routine traffic stop. His rifles are owned by a trust, of which he is the trustee. It took a good bit of explanation by him to the local LEO for them to check it out; otherwise he'd have had the hassle of having the gun impounded and him arrested or detained until the matter was cleared up. And he is a former ALE officer, imagine what the normal schmoe would have to go through.

I also think it shouldn't be up to the local sheriff whether or not he signs the Form3. As I said earlier, I live in a county where the sheriff is more than happy to sign, as long as he either knows the person, or the person is vouched for by someone the sheriff knows. There are counties within the state where the sheriff flatly refuses any requests (and my cousin lives in one of them) regardless of the circumstances. You have to apply in your county of residence, so if your sheriff says "hell no", you can't go to another one and ask. I think this should be handled like the concealed carry laws, and in a "shall issue" state, if you ask, and are not on the excluded by law list, you get.

To expand a little on NC's PPP procedure, it works the same for anyone selling a handgun, whether a FFL dealer or a private seller. The sale of a handgun by a private individual is, in itself, not illegal, but the seller is required to ensure the buyer had obtained the PPP before the transaction can take place. This, supposedly, is to ensure that a prohibited individual (such as a convicted felon) can't buy a gun. In the real world, guns trade hands between private parties all day and night, and nothing comes of it, until one of these guns gets used in a crime, and then a trace of where it came from ends up at a former owner who didn't maintain the paper trail.

Last edited by Burnout; 01-01-2014 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:50 PM   #4057
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Another big win for IL...
Federal judge rules city ban on handgun sales unconstitutional - Chicago Sun-Times

Of course the city will appeal, costing the taxpayers millions of more dollars... but eventually a law-abiding person will be able to buy a handgun inside the city limits.
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Old 01-07-2014, 08:01 PM   #4058
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Screw the machine they call Chicago.
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Old 01-07-2014, 10:07 PM   #4059
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Such morons.......the article mentioned that the ban on gun sales in Chicago was designed to keep criminals from getting guns. What? Do they really think the average crook/thief/druggie/murderer goes to the local gun store to get his weaponry? These guys are so far removed from reality that it's scary.
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Old 01-19-2014, 03:36 PM   #4060
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I currently have a PSA AR but always wanted to build one just for the experience of it. I am not an AR expert and don't even know the name of most of the parts and this has kept me from doing the project. I was always worried about buying parts and either not getting the correct stuff or ending up needing something else. This looks like a fair deal to me and I was wondering what opinions you guys had on it:

Back in stock - Complete AR15 Rifle - $419.97 + $14 S/H | Slickguns



My FFL charges $25 for a transfer so I would have $460 (plus some fuel and some time) in the rifle. Oh, and a few $$$ for rear carry handle sight and magazines. I recently cleaned the hell out of my AR and put it up because I hardly ever shot it. Not sure what I would do with the one I built (maybe just sell it)???
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