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Old 02-27-2012, 05:17 AM   #1
Default Nürburgring BTG under 8 min  
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:44 AM   #2
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Nice clean driving. I saw that car at Grüne hölle last year.
In 2008 I did 08:32 in my MSM with the stock turbo ~200 whp and 08:37 in 2011 with a N/A setup ~120 whp.
If my Rotrex setup works as planned I'll have another go this aug/sep with ~300whp, 225 R888 and Öhlins DFV.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:21 PM   #3
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That guy helped me win the 2010 MaX5 cup
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:27 PM   #4
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Oh, and I remember 949 claiming they can do 6m30 based on calculations, but I think they made a math error somewhere down that line.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:01 PM   #5
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Nice, so he finally made it, met him at the ring a couple of years ago. Think he was at 8.05 or so back then. Nice guy.

Edit: 8.07?


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Old 02-28-2012, 01:48 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Spookyfish View Post
Oh, and I remember 949 claiming they can do 6m30 based on calculations, but I think they made a math error somewhere down that line.
Ton has done a great job on a limited budget. Great fun to watch a dedicatd DIY'er tackle this legendary track. I think there is more speed available from a Miata though. A lot more. I'm curious about the car that did the 8:07. Pics, specs?

Weigh with driver and fuel for one lap
Ride height
Wheel width
Tire size and compound
Transmission
Rev limiter
Brakes

ZR1, GTR do ~7:25 on street tires for a complete lap. That's about 20s longer than BtG right? We have several 2.5 mile tracks in California that are 2:00 for a very fast street car on R compounds. A stock ZR1 or GTR on street will do about 2:00 on those courses. There are a few Miatas in California now that will lap about 10s faster that either of those cars on the same 2.5 mile courses. They're even faster than a championship winning ZO6 on soft compound 315 Hoosiers.

So yeah, I make that out to about 6:30 with say, Carl Rydquist driving.

The car we're building will be about 15s faster that a GTR on <2:00 course. About 170mph top end speed (gearing limited), 1.8G worth of grip. We may never be able to bring it there but we plan to try. I only have a few goals in cars: T25, 24hrs of Nurburgring and BtG.

~6:30 BtG for an existing unit body MX5 with a BP engine.
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And so starts the long downhill decline from turbo street car to NA track car to "super miata" clone build. I've seen it a dozen times...
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:41 AM   #7
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I would love to see miata doing 6.30 lap, it would be stepping on Pagani Zonda R toes.
Emilio, do you think it could be done if you look the pace that R keeps? I know that the question is daft but if you just compare the corner speeds between R and the blue and then blue to your ideal car



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Old 02-28-2012, 03:22 AM   #8
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Ton has done a great job on a limited budget.
[...]
The car we're building will be about 15s faster that a GTR on <2:00 course.
The point being that most (if not all) <2m tracks are twisty, short, tight corners and therefore very favorable to small, light cars. The ring is NOT such a place. You want a long wheel base, stable car with lots of oomph.

That car had a 3.6 Torsen, ~235rwhp and about 2200lbs on 225s R888s. He has done several sub 8min theoretical laps, but only 8.0x in real life. Such is life on a 20km track: no single lap is perfect and there is always traffic somewhere, or roadworks (yes!).

That, and I myself have done 8.25 BTG trying to tailgate Ton, but I can tell you that 25s on a 20km track is a HUGE, HUGE gap. He was literally waiting me up in corners. Take that in mind when you want to remove another 90s from (>18%) that laptime.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:54 AM   #9
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Pretty sure they can build a reliable 350-380rwhp car with proper slick aero.

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Old 02-28-2012, 03:58 AM   #10
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Pretty sure they can build a reliable 350-380rwhp car with proper slick aero.
Dann
I'm sure that will be faster, but 90s faster? Power and aero don't help with the wheelbase issue.
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:39 AM   #11
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Anyone sittin in front of gran turismo/forza could give ago, ~400rwhp miata, tracktuned with aero and then compare it to Zonda R. I know its only a game, but we dont get closer than that by being interweb warriors.
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:46 AM   #12
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The wheelbase isnt needed with proper aero.

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Old 02-28-2012, 01:46 PM   #13
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I'd be absolutely astonished if a Miata - even one with barely any Miata bits left - could lap at the same pace as the SR8LM, which is what Emilio is saying. As Spookyfish said, and from what I can gather, the 'ring is a power and aero track. I'm sure a Miata could easily make 450hp, but I'm doubtful it could ever weigh as little or be such a complete aero package as the Radical.

Edit - excuse the ---- video. Bonus points for anyone who can spot the blatant edit at the beginning of the lap!


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Old 02-28-2012, 02:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
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The wheelbase isnt needed with proper aero.
Dann
Disagree but irrelevant now. That video of the Radical just proves the stupidity of a 6m30s Miata.

The SR8 is doing a 6m48s so still the Miata needs to shave 18s of that lap. The SR8 is apexing at 214kmh (134mph) where Ton is fighting to reach 160kmh (100mph). You don't win 34mph apex speed with a bit corrugated plastic.

Carl Rydquist hasn't won any 24 Hours of Nurburgring, so he may be good, not God.
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Edit - excuse the ---- video. Bonus points for anyone who can spot the blatant edit at the beginning of the lap!
1m38s - so they put two laps together cuz they couldn't really do a sub 6m50s at once?
- edit - another at ~3m30s
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:35 PM   #16
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I'm not sure what's going on with the editing - I thought the 6m 48 was independently verified, so why they cut and paste all through the vid I'm not entirely sure...
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:13 PM   #17
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So yeah, I make that out to about 6:30 with say, Carl Rydquist driving.
You just have to make room for him, not the shortest driver to fit

He has experience of mistreating miatas to impossible times for the setup, at least in the "good old days" as instructor in my club.
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Old 02-28-2012, 03:25 PM   #18
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6:30 BtG in a Miata = LOL.
Rent4Ring will be renting out NC's track prepped by IL motorsport this season.
It will be worth the trip over the pond!
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:00 PM   #19
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Just to weigh in from another person who's been round the ring a few times (all be in on 2 wheels). I find the prospect of a 6 min 30s MX-5 almost laughable, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

I really would love to believe it, but can't. And this is why:


http://community.evo.co.uk/users/Hen...urgring-Record


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Old 02-28-2012, 10:44 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Spookyfish View Post
That car had a 3.6 Torsen, ~235rwhp and about 2200lbs on 225s R888s.
Can we get pictures and full specs of the car? I would really like to see that.
Judging from the video intro, it has a stock front bumper with a bunch of ducts and cooling holes and a simple lip spoiler with splitter. GTC-200 wing, sitting at about 5" pinch weld height on 8" wheels with a stock shaped hard top. Is that how it ran the 8:07?

What was Ton's average speed? That's an important bit of data.

Here's another turbo NA street car on the ring. Almost no aero and no hard top, 8:05 here
.

I don't understand the time vs distance argument you made. Time is time whether you are going 10mph or 100mph.

Also don't understand the wheelbase argument. You really think that a wheel base must be longer to lower lap times?

It's great for us in the US to see Ton's great lap and learn about the car. One of the things we do here at 949 Racing on a daily basis is assess the value and effectiveness of Miata performance modifications in a racing environment. It's what we do for a living, and all we do. Constant testing on a huge variety of componentry and tuning. Our team alone puts about 200 race hours a year and another 200 hours of open practice, time attack and testing. We win a lot of races and set lap records at every track we visit. Whatever you are thinking of trying next, we probably already have.

That knowledge base enables us to make some reasonably accurate predictions of mods vs lap times once we have a baseline as we now have with the blue turbo NA and Ton's car. So my rough estimate and prediction is not random number.
__
Starting with Ton's car:

Add ~150whp
What do you suppose that's worth? On our highest speed track, that's changes a 235whpMiata with aero from about 1:50 to about 1:43. So ~7s per 2:00 or 28s over 8:00

Add 2"' of wheel width and a Hoosier slick combo that is ~12s faster than an R888 on a 2:00 course. 48s faster over BtG from tire alone.

Delete 100lbs. Typically about 1s on a 2:00 course

Add 300lbs of downforce. About 5s on a 2:00 course, 20s over 8:00

~140s

Clearly not every mod is additive. Much like a 4whp intake, 6whp exhaust and 10whp header might be 14whp and not 20whp. So 140s faster is not possible. The reality, I think is far under 7:00 though and I would stake a large bet on that.

This is not including aero drag reduction, 6 speed over 5 speed, tuned OS Giken diff, optimized weight distribution and polar moment of inertia, etc.

I'm not flatly stating that I or anyone else can absolutely do 6:30. I am pointing to evidence, based on substantial experience, that there are very large gains to be made. Over a minute easy. Ton's car, while well thought out and tuned, is nowhere near the cutting edge of Miata race development. Ton's car on Buttonwillow 13CW (A standard reference in California) with what looks like maybe 8" wheels on 225 R888's would do about a 1:59. My daily driver with 147whp does 2:02's on street tires. We have cars built and running that will do 1:48 with the right driver and tires.

We get a constant stream of magazines, blogs, TV shows bringing supercars with good drivers to Buttonwillow 13CW. None have ever gone faster than our heavy 230whp time attack car from two years ago.

When it is all said an done, this isn't just smack talk. Excluding the variable of traffic, a lap way below 7:00 is possible, you just don't see it yet.

Maybe I need to be like FM and ask my customers to send me money so I can take the OGK to Nurgburging ring for a sub 7:00 BtG.
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Quote:
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And so starts the long downhill decline from turbo street car to NA track car to "super miata" clone build. I've seen it a dozen times...
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