Hey guys. Noob from South FL here. Some background info and turbo questions.
07-17-2012, 05:00 PM
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Hey guys. Noob from South FL here. Some background info and turbo questions.
Hey guys,
I've posted before but I never officially de-noobed myself. My name's Lee and I'm totally enjoying my '90 Miata. This car is perfect for FL, especially the winter! I'm with the top down almost every day in the winter here in south FL. Let's me actually enjoy my work commute
My car is basically stock except for some headers and some Star Specs. I took it to an auto-x event a few months back and it was some of the most fun I've ever had! I'm totally looking forward to the next event.
I did dabble with a MSPNP a few months back. I got a MAP gauge and AEM WB to help with the tuning but I was never really satisfied with the drivability or fuel economy. Sure I felt the extra torque but I just couldn't get it to as smooth as the stock ECU. I'm sure I could have added a VTPS and kept on tuning but I lost interest in the MS, especially when I wanted to be in the STS class of my local auto-x. I ended up removing the MS (though my local auto-x wouldn't have cared either way) and selling it. Maybe I'm just too lazy to tune it properly, but I guess I just didn't want my car to be another computer that I needed to worry about (I get enough of computers at work).
So here I am now. I got a good deal on a used BEGI Churbo and I'm slowly trying to assemble a 5-6 psi non-intercooled kit to turbo the car but without a MS. I know... I know... I understand the limitations of a non-MS turbo build and all the extra fuel system parts (i.e. FMU, HP fuel Pump, O2 clamp, etc.) that I need to buy where I could have just bought a MS and 460cc injectors but I want to build a kit built around the stock ECU (crazy I know, but it's what I want).
So I have some questions for the community. When I initially bought the MSPNP, it was suggested in the community to take a systematic approach to upgrading the car in order to reduce the number of variables that needed to be tuned at a time. So I bought the MS, then installed the AEM WB. I was then going to install a VTPS and then some larger injectors. This would allow me to troubleshoot one thing at a time. Well, I want to do that for this turbo build.
I want to install 265cc 1.8l injectors, an FMU, a HP fuel pump, O2 clamp and a ignition device (their order doesn't really matter, I suppose) BEFORE I install the turbo. I want to drive around with that setup (obviously knowing that most additions won't do anything since there'll be no boost) and then when I have all the parts for the turbo kit, I can then install the turbo.
I think this is doable and the Miata should be just fine for the most part. However, the only concern I have is with the larger injectors. I know that going with the larger injectors and stock AFM settings will result in a richer mixture, BUT don't I want to run richer for when I'm turbocharged?? OR am I misunderstanding the concept of fuel mixture and I should adjust the AFM so that it works like "normal" with the larger injectors with or with turbo?
Regards,
Lee
I've posted before but I never officially de-noobed myself. My name's Lee and I'm totally enjoying my '90 Miata. This car is perfect for FL, especially the winter! I'm with the top down almost every day in the winter here in south FL. Let's me actually enjoy my work commute
My car is basically stock except for some headers and some Star Specs. I took it to an auto-x event a few months back and it was some of the most fun I've ever had! I'm totally looking forward to the next event.
I did dabble with a MSPNP a few months back. I got a MAP gauge and AEM WB to help with the tuning but I was never really satisfied with the drivability or fuel economy. Sure I felt the extra torque but I just couldn't get it to as smooth as the stock ECU. I'm sure I could have added a VTPS and kept on tuning but I lost interest in the MS, especially when I wanted to be in the STS class of my local auto-x. I ended up removing the MS (though my local auto-x wouldn't have cared either way) and selling it. Maybe I'm just too lazy to tune it properly, but I guess I just didn't want my car to be another computer that I needed to worry about (I get enough of computers at work).
So here I am now. I got a good deal on a used BEGI Churbo and I'm slowly trying to assemble a 5-6 psi non-intercooled kit to turbo the car but without a MS. I know... I know... I understand the limitations of a non-MS turbo build and all the extra fuel system parts (i.e. FMU, HP fuel Pump, O2 clamp, etc.) that I need to buy where I could have just bought a MS and 460cc injectors but I want to build a kit built around the stock ECU (crazy I know, but it's what I want).
So I have some questions for the community. When I initially bought the MSPNP, it was suggested in the community to take a systematic approach to upgrading the car in order to reduce the number of variables that needed to be tuned at a time. So I bought the MS, then installed the AEM WB. I was then going to install a VTPS and then some larger injectors. This would allow me to troubleshoot one thing at a time. Well, I want to do that for this turbo build.
I want to install 265cc 1.8l injectors, an FMU, a HP fuel pump, O2 clamp and a ignition device (their order doesn't really matter, I suppose) BEFORE I install the turbo. I want to drive around with that setup (obviously knowing that most additions won't do anything since there'll be no boost) and then when I have all the parts for the turbo kit, I can then install the turbo.
I think this is doable and the Miata should be just fine for the most part. However, the only concern I have is with the larger injectors. I know that going with the larger injectors and stock AFM settings will result in a richer mixture, BUT don't I want to run richer for when I'm turbocharged?? OR am I misunderstanding the concept of fuel mixture and I should adjust the AFM so that it works like "normal" with the larger injectors with or with turbo?
Regards,
Lee
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07-18-2012, 11:32 AM
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I'm not looking for more than 6psi. What about turbo kits that came out before stand alone ECUs even existed? Are they all "full of fail"? That's just ignorant. I would argue that for people doing low boost turbo installs, the "bandaids" would be a better solution than an MS. And I'm not alone. Not every wants their car to be another computer. I design computer hardware for a living. I get my computer "fix" at work so I don't want to deal with computers in my car. Shocking, I know.
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07-18-2012, 04:00 PM
#8
The simple fact of the matter is, you may not be alone in the thought that by putting crappy bandAIDS on your car will be somehow more cost effective and provide the same level of drivability and safety as a megasquirt, but each member of that same extremely small group are considered equally misguided.
YES, cars were turbocharged before the MS came to prevalence, and yes, they ran OK, but the simple fact of the matter is that bandaids are a hack. You are intentionally deceiving the ECU into doing something it isn't designed to do, and expecting results.
Back in the day, this may have been considered the 'correct' way to do things given the level of technology available and the cost of standalone systems, but it is simply unacceptable given the cost and performance of a megasquirt.
So, if you insist on using crapaids, be our guest. Your car probably* wont blow up, but its drivability will suffer and it won't ever reach it's full potential. Do what you want to, but don't expect any help from us (and in fact, you can probably expect to get flamed to hell, because you're incapable of heeding our extremely qualified advice).
YES, cars were turbocharged before the MS came to prevalence, and yes, they ran OK, but the simple fact of the matter is that bandaids are a hack. You are intentionally deceiving the ECU into doing something it isn't designed to do, and expecting results.
Back in the day, this may have been considered the 'correct' way to do things given the level of technology available and the cost of standalone systems, but it is simply unacceptable given the cost and performance of a megasquirt.
So, if you insist on using crapaids, be our guest. Your car probably* wont blow up, but its drivability will suffer and it won't ever reach it's full potential. Do what you want to, but don't expect any help from us (and in fact, you can probably expect to get flamed to hell, because you're incapable of heeding our extremely qualified advice).
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07-18-2012, 04:13 PM
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Hmm. I was afraid to put in my MS1 because of all of the questions and fail that kept coming up on the forums. Then I put it in. It was far more easy and intuitive than I had been led to believe. And after I tuned it to my satisfaction I just left it alone. There was nothing more to worry about with it than being worried about the complexity of inserting the key and turning. But then again, I started with Braineak's base tune and used TunerStudio's VE Analyze Live to autotune my fueling.
But we'll go on now to your current problems. If you use bandaids, you will be too rich or too lean most of the time, but it will run. It might not idle well at all, and it will likely stumble when entering boost. You will need to retard your base timing significantly from the 14 degrees you are currently running so you don't have too much at torque peak. And you will maybe get 40-50whp.
If you are cool with all of that, fine. Everybody has different standards.
My car made 5psi at the last track day with a blown up turbo and the wastegate wired open and it was so slow it made me sad.
Frankly, at those power levels it probably costs less and is easier to install and use nitrous oxide. But it is still pretty pointless. Don't roll up on any Camrys at the stoplight and expect to take them.
But we'll go on now to your current problems. If you use bandaids, you will be too rich or too lean most of the time, but it will run. It might not idle well at all, and it will likely stumble when entering boost. You will need to retard your base timing significantly from the 14 degrees you are currently running so you don't have too much at torque peak. And you will maybe get 40-50whp.
If you are cool with all of that, fine. Everybody has different standards.
My car made 5psi at the last track day with a blown up turbo and the wastegate wired open and it was so slow it made me sad.
Frankly, at those power levels it probably costs less and is easier to install and use nitrous oxide. But it is still pretty pointless. Don't roll up on any Camrys at the stoplight and expect to take them.
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07-18-2012, 04:15 PM
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The simple fact of the matter is, you may not be alone in the thought that by putting crappy bandAIDS on your car will be somehow more cost effective and provide the same level of drivability and safety as a megasquirt, but each member of that same extremely small group are considered equally misguided.
YES, cars were turbocharged before the MS came to prevalence, and yes, they ran OK, but the simple fact of the matter is that bandaids are a hack. You are intentionally deceiving the ECU into doing something it isn't designed to do, and expecting results.
Back in the day, this may have been considered the 'correct' way to do things given the level of technology available and the cost of standalone systems, but it is simply unacceptable given the cost and performance of a megasquirt.
So, if you insist on using crapaids, be our guest. Your car probably* wont blow up, but its drivability will suffer and it won't ever reach it's full potential. Do what you want to, but don't expect any help from us (and in fact, you can probably expect to get flamed to hell, because you're incapable of heeding our extremely qualified advice).
YES, cars were turbocharged before the MS came to prevalence, and yes, they ran OK, but the simple fact of the matter is that bandaids are a hack. You are intentionally deceiving the ECU into doing something it isn't designed to do, and expecting results.
Back in the day, this may have been considered the 'correct' way to do things given the level of technology available and the cost of standalone systems, but it is simply unacceptable given the cost and performance of a megasquirt.
So, if you insist on using crapaids, be our guest. Your car probably* wont blow up, but its drivability will suffer and it won't ever reach it's full potential. Do what you want to, but don't expect any help from us (and in fact, you can probably expect to get flamed to hell, because you're incapable of heeding our extremely qualified advice).
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07-18-2012, 05:21 PM
#14
You know what they say:
"IF YOU'RE GONNA BE DUMB, YOU BETTER BE TOUGH"
Might as well throw carburators and leaf springs on there too while you're at it.
Last edited by 18psi; 07-18-2012 at 07:54 PM.
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