The 18psi MS PNP-Pro questions thread (Attention DIYAutotune)
Funny how many YEARS ago that was, and even today closed loop EBC isn't ironed out yet on MS...
05-14-2015, 08:10 AM
#182
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 18,642
Total Cats: 1,866
Don't tune specifically to hit boost as early as possible because even in SETUP MODE the boost controller will be at 100% until (x)kpa from your target, where 'x' is your kpa delta setting. I would advise making this number SMALL for tuning purposes. 5kpa to ZERO kpa might be appropriate when tuning bias table. Make sure you have your over boost set up.
Also something to test which supposedly makes it easier - set proper "closed" and "open" numbers. Start at 100 and work your way down until your spool slows down. Use that number (the lowest number that spools fast) as fully closed.
Also something to test which supposedly makes it easier - set proper "closed" and "open" numbers. Start at 100 and work your way down until your spool slows down. Use that number (the lowest number that spools fast) as fully closed.
It makes it a lot easier. Because the PID isnt trying to pull the DC to the moon it helps eliminate integral windup. You get annoying clicky sounds though.
Reply
0
0
05-14-2015, 10:59 AM
#184
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 18,642
Total Cats: 1,866
Even then. You still need to give the system time to react. Setup mode is just a way to tune the bias duty table. Leave everything else how you would for PID. With ideal PID you want it to work really well off the bias table. And let PID take care of external changes.
I also cannot stress how important it is to set your maximum duty as low as you can without affecting spool. It made a night and day difference for me.
Also for the DIYAutotune boost solenoid. 19.5hz makes tuning way easier.
Mods can we get this broken out into a new "Tuning the new MS boost control"?
I also cannot stress how important it is to set your maximum duty as low as you can without affecting spool. It made a night and day difference for me.
Also for the DIYAutotune boost solenoid. 19.5hz makes tuning way easier.
Mods can we get this broken out into a new "Tuning the new MS boost control"?
Reply
0
0
05-14-2015, 12:04 PM
#185
Some relevant content
Originally Posted by muythaibxr
1) In 1.3.4, the initial values table could be turned off and you could avoid using the lower limit delta as well by just setting it to a large number. This is no longer the case in 1.4. In 1.4 the type of PID loop was changed, which *requires* you to go into setup mode and configure the bias table appropriately. This means setting up the rpms on the x axis, the expected targets on the y axis, and the duty required to reach your target (or close to it) on the Z-axis. You should also set the lower-limit delta to ~20-30 kPa. This means PID won't engage until you're 20-30 kPa from the target, and you'll get a faster, more controllable spool. Once you get the "open loop" stuff working correctly, you can switch from setup to basic mode, and try to tune using the slider. IF you can't get it to act right after that, we can look at the specific problem you're having, and potentially work on going to advanced mode and tuning the individual PID gains.
2) People tended to set the control interval wrong for their setups in 1.3.x and earlier. You were a good example of this. You had a control interval of 10 ms but a valve frequency of 19.5 Hz. This means that your control loop was making ~5 changes for every possible actual change in the valve position. The fastest you can actually make a change to the valve position with a frequency of 19.5 Hz is every 51.3 ms. Setting the loop any faster than this doesn't make sense. In 1.4 we removed that setting since it caused a lot of tuning issues, and fixed the control interval to be correct for the valve frequency.
These changes result in a better ability to control boost, especially on systems that spool really fast, but require a bit more tuning to set up.
Ken
2) People tended to set the control interval wrong for their setups in 1.3.x and earlier. You were a good example of this. You had a control interval of 10 ms but a valve frequency of 19.5 Hz. This means that your control loop was making ~5 changes for every possible actual change in the valve position. The fastest you can actually make a change to the valve position with a frequency of 19.5 Hz is every 51.3 ms. Setting the loop any faster than this doesn't make sense. In 1.4 we removed that setting since it caused a lot of tuning issues, and fixed the control interval to be correct for the valve frequency.
These changes result in a better ability to control boost, especially on systems that spool really fast, but require a bit more tuning to set up.
Ken
Reply
0
0
05-20-2016, 01:44 AM
#186
All-round "Good Guy"
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 992
Total Cats: 245
:
1) I don't see a clear provision/documentation ANYWHERE to connect a wideband directly to the MS, and not through the OE wiring harness. I do NOT want to use the front OR the rear oxygen sensor wires to connect, I want the 0-5v wire going directly to MS just like all my previous units. I've an AEM UEGO fwiw
:
1) I don't see a clear provision/documentation ANYWHERE to connect a wideband directly to the MS, and not through the OE wiring harness. I do NOT want to use the front OR the rear oxygen sensor wires to connect, I want the 0-5v wire going directly to MS just like all my previous units. I've an AEM UEGO fwiw
:
"There are two ways of connecting the controller to the MSPNP2. You can either connect the analog output to the pin labeled Oxygen Sensor input of the option connector, or you can cut and splice the oxygen sensor signal wire to the analog output. If you use this pin for wideband input, you must disconnect the stock oxygen sensor. Do not ground the oxygen sensor wire if you disconnect it; leave it completely unconnected and taped off if necessary (make sure it can't short to ground or anything else)."
There are actually three ways of connecting the Wideband O2 sensor to the ECU via an analog input; here is the 3rd way and I believe what 18psi wanted to do in the first place:
On the lower/larger board there's an O2 jumper which connects 2 of the 3 pins in the 3-pin group in the corner near the OEM harness.
By default, the jumper is set to use the harness' front O2 front sensor.
If you move the jumper down one spot, it uses the harness' rear O2 sensor.
If you remove that jumper, you can simply connect your Wideband O2 sensor's output to the MIDDLE pin - this is the pin that connects to the MS3 board's O2 pin.
Reply
0
0
08-17-2016, 06:21 PM
#187
Newb
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Dallas
Posts: 32
Total Cats: -12
First the good news: today I randomly felt like throwing in the new PNP-Pro into my 04 MSM. I wanted to prove to myself for the millionth time how easy and quick the process is and not really stress the details, so I literally unplugged the OEM ecu, plugged in the MS, ran a vacuum line to it, and........
.........started the car
2) is the OEM msm ait sensor calibration finally "finalized" and valid and values posted in the other thread are legitimate? If so, please confirm, if not please advise. I want to retain the OEM AIT2 sensor if possible. curly's edit: see pic below for base map values
.........started the car
2) is the OEM msm ait sensor calibration finally "finalized" and valid and values posted in the other thread are legitimate? If so, please confirm, if not please advise. I want to retain the OEM AIT2 sensor if possible. curly's edit: see pic below for base map values
Reply
0
0
08-17-2016, 07:39 PM
#191
All-round "Good Guy"
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 992
Total Cats: 245
The MSM OEM IAT sensor sits in the OEM pod filter, like most NBs.
The MSM has a second air intake sensor, IAT2, that sits in the elbow prior to the TB - this is the one used by the OEM ECU for fuel control, IAT is not used at all.
These are separate inputs to the ECU.
Does the MS3 Pro simply short IAT and IAT2 together? (I tested most pin combinations but NOT this one - this would screw up the readings if both IAT and IAT2 had sensors connected)
On a N/A Miata, there is only one IAT sensor so it makes sense that that is the one wired to the MS3 Pro's AIT input.
I doubt that the MSM IAT sensor is even used by the MS3Pro, and suspect that only IAT2 is used.
The MS3 Pro's rear option connector has an an IAT pin (see Pin E on MegaSquirtPNP by DIYAutoTune.com ; I can confirm that this is electrically connected to the the OEM harness' IAT2 pin which connects to the MS3 Pro's AIT input).
Reply
0
0
08-17-2016, 07:45 PM
#192
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 45
Total Cats: 1
I emailed Matt Cramer about this when setting up on my MSM and was told the pre-turbo sensor is not used at all just the one in TB elbow. I completely eliminated that section of Flyin Miata intake pre-turbo and tucked the wiring away with no issue.
Reply
0
0
08-17-2016, 08:46 PM
#194
Newb
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Dallas
Posts: 32
Total Cats: -12
You sure about the AIT sensor input?
The MSM OEM IAT sensor sits in the OEM pod filter, like most NBs.
The MSM has a second air intake sensor, IAT2, that sits in the elbow prior to the TB - this is the one used by the OEM ECU for fuel control, IAT is not used at all.
These are separate inputs to the ECU.
Does the MS3 Pro simply short IAT and IAT2 together? (I tested most pin combinations but NOT this one - this would screw up the readings if both IAT and IAT2 had sensors connected)
On a N/A Miata, there is only one IAT sensor so it makes sense that that is the one wired to the MS3 Pro's AIT input.
I doubt that the MSM IAT sensor is even used by the MS3Pro, and suspect that only IAT2 is used.
The MS3 Pro's rear option connector has an an IAT pin (see Pin E on MegaSquirtPNP by DIYAutoTune.com ; I can confirm that this is electrically connected to the the OEM harness' IAT2 pin which connects to the MS3 Pro's AIT input).
The MSM OEM IAT sensor sits in the OEM pod filter, like most NBs.
The MSM has a second air intake sensor, IAT2, that sits in the elbow prior to the TB - this is the one used by the OEM ECU for fuel control, IAT is not used at all.
These are separate inputs to the ECU.
Does the MS3 Pro simply short IAT and IAT2 together? (I tested most pin combinations but NOT this one - this would screw up the readings if both IAT and IAT2 had sensors connected)
On a N/A Miata, there is only one IAT sensor so it makes sense that that is the one wired to the MS3 Pro's AIT input.
I doubt that the MSM IAT sensor is even used by the MS3Pro, and suspect that only IAT2 is used.
The MS3 Pro's rear option connector has an an IAT pin (see Pin E on MegaSquirtPNP by DIYAutoTune.com ; I can confirm that this is electrically connected to the the OEM harness' IAT2 pin which connects to the MS3 Pro's AIT input).
Reply
0
0
08-17-2016, 08:52 PM
#195
All-round "Good Guy"
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 992
Total Cats: 245
I'm in the process of tuning my DIY Autotune MSM PnP-Pro and would like to point out an error with the default MAP provided by DIY Autotune - this thread seems like a good place to consolidate this type of info.
The PWM Idle Control Valve frequency was set to 383Hz which I believe is the NA value for the valve - the NB uses a different valve.
On Adaptronic ECUs, this needs to be set to 500Hz on NBs and researching on the net indicates that for NBs using a Megasquirt it should be set to 511Hz.
Is this a big issue and has anyone found any other errors with the default MAP?
The PWM Idle Control Valve frequency was set to 383Hz which I believe is the NA value for the valve - the NB uses a different valve.
On Adaptronic ECUs, this needs to be set to 500Hz on NBs and researching on the net indicates that for NBs using a Megasquirt it should be set to 511Hz.
Is this a big issue and has anyone found any other errors with the default MAP?
Reply
0
0
08-17-2016, 09:05 PM
#196
All-round "Good Guy"
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 992
Total Cats: 245
That's what I thought, that I could snip and re wire oem iat cables to gm iat sensor because already being in oem harness but the guy that sold the unit to me/tuner said to direct wire the gm iat sensor straight through firewall to the back of mspnp pro and connect it to "A" & "E"
In my case, I have the sensor mounted in the intercooler's coldside tank and since I needed to route my oil temperature and pressure sensor wiring along the starboard side of the engine bay anyway, I decided to route the IAT sensor along with them so all 3 sensors connect to the rear option connector. This also cleans up the engine bay a bit, there's no IAT wires coming from the OEM harness in the engine bay and winding down to the IAT bung in the intercooler tank.
Reply
0
0
08-17-2016, 10:17 PM
#197
Newb
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Dallas
Posts: 32
Total Cats: -12
I just wanted to see if anyone had any other way or idea different than direct trace from gm iat sensor to back of ms pro and unplug the oem iat2
Or
if it was just ok to put the gm sensor where the oem iat2 is at re-wire tip to make fit in the new sensor for ms pro to read it from oem harness. At least for the msm
hope I make sense. 😅
Reply
0
0
08-17-2016, 10:24 PM
#198
there's no need to wire it in separately. he's silly
all of us wire in to OEM IAT (or IAT2) wiring.
And Lokiel, there were at least a couple things wrong with the DIY supplied map, so yeah you might be right. We've had to change a few things to make it work right. It's a base map after all.
all of us wire in to OEM IAT (or IAT2) wiring.
And Lokiel, there were at least a couple things wrong with the DIY supplied map, so yeah you might be right. We've had to change a few things to make it work right. It's a base map after all.
Reply
0
0
08-20-2016, 03:40 AM
#200
I'm laughing because the original questions asked in this thread were asked again by me a couple months ago almost verbatim. I will have to re-read this thread now.
Btw, I THINK I have modified my MSpnpPro to get operational VCTS, Clutch/launch, Charcoal cannister purge, etc. If I don't see the answers in this thread when I am done catching up I will post the instructions. If not, it's in my build thread.
Btw, I THINK I have modified my MSpnpPro to get operational VCTS, Clutch/launch, Charcoal cannister purge, etc. If I don't see the answers in this thread when I am done catching up I will post the instructions. If not, it's in my build thread.
Reply
0
0
